Just How Bad Could it be or How Good could it be for GC ??

[Dogface]

AO's.
I like it.

I like it when you use the larger font too!
I wonder if more of the mature persona's
should be using them too??

 

[MTBar]

I'd love to see one division again ALONG with the 72 student cut off, for sixman. Don't think a school that has 25 or more kids should be playing sixman football. Just my opinion. Guess what, don't think either one will happen!

 

[justobserving]

AO's.
I like it.

I like it when you use the larger font too!
I wonder if more of the mature persona's
should be using them too??

Dogface, Thank You for your delicate wording but we ain't MATURE PERSONA's .... We're just the "Old Guys" ...

 

[smokeyjoe53]

"Old Guys"? I guess that's a lot nicer than "old Farts"

 

[justobserving]

Motley Co. 50 • Garden City 44 .....

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS...

The question is still there ...

 

[kbjoe1]

every time we make changes in the system that limits the number of students that will participate in an activity the more we loose in society.. thus i am for the separation of divisions. there is less and less for our kids to do in small towns. allowing them to compete with groups their size encourages kids from all ability levels to not only participate but to be an integral part of the dynamic called life.

 

[justobserving]

every time we make changes in the system that limits the number of students that will participate in an activity the more we loose in society.. thus i am for the separation of divisions. there is less and less for our kids to do in small towns. allowing them to compete with groups their size encourages kids from all ability levels to not only participate but to be an integral part of the dynamic called life.

Yes kbjoe1, your are correct the "DYNAMIC called LIFE" ... Unfortunately this Dynamic called Life does not allow for Divisions in living and being a part of real life. You must compete on one level. The job, the lifestyle the family values you desire must be played out on one field - life's field. There are NO DIVISIONS on Life's field. One must learn to compete - no matter the competition level if you want to be part of the level of the DYNAMIC called LIFE where you want to live and exist ....

I am sorry -- there is no provision in life for a Division or Award so everyone can be a winner. That is a hard lesson to learn after you have lived in a "Gimmie" and "Hand Out" feel good environment.

We have been over this many times ... Three teams to the playoffs out of District ... absurd ... two teams is bad enough ... District Champion used mean winner and going to the playoffs. Now it is winner and have a place provided just like every other undeserving 2nd and 3rd place team. I know ... really unfeeling. But to me 1st is 1st and everyone else finished 2nd loser or lower. There is no shame in that, you just didn't win ....

My point is made by the game mentioned above. DII defeated DI. So why are they in DII ?? Please explain this to me. The played on the same field as any other six man team. Same rules. Same ball. Even up circumstances - who won ? Seems pretty simple to me ...

Really in the world of political correctness, saving face, sparing hurt feelings and to protect against the possible total destruction of confidence, self worth and self esteem of the the DII team - the game should have never been played. This is the logical conclusion to the Division argument...

Oh and by the way how many District Winners against 2nd and 3rd place finishers playoff games have you attended ? What is the normal (yes there is the infrequent exception) outcome of that planned and orchestrated train wreck ??

And yes before we go there ... I do think there is room for Divisions from AAAAA on Down to a point ....

 

[rainjacktx]

Your logic is faulty to a fault, JO. Life most certainly does have divisions. All one needs do is look around.

I guess age doesn't always bring the wisdom most expect it to.

 

[topher80]

lol in the end... it doesn't matter. State champs means a nice little patch for your jacket, a photo in the school, a trophy, and a ring. I won a state championship... seems like ages ago. Doesn't matter anymore, it is a nice memory but that is all that it is... a memory.

Let the kids play in whatever divisions because in the end we are getting huffed up over future memories.

Life will teach kids about winning and losing soon enough let them play.

 

[justobserving]

Your logic is faulty to a fault, JO. Life most certainly does have divisions. All one needs do is look around.

I guess age doesn't always bring the wisdom most expect it to.

We can agree to disagree but life's Divisions are self imposed ... you can exist on the playing field you wish to exist and are willing to try and achieve ... but Life's rules and opportunities are there for all of those who wish to persevere and make the effort ... that or you can wait around for someone to legislate your provided opportunity.

The stark reality is - not everyone is a winner - not in our society. It is based on achievers and those who do not. Yes circumstances do keep people from succeeding, but that is called life. There are places, winners and losers everywhere. Are you your own boss ?? Do you have the job or career you want and as successful as you want to be ?? Make all the money you want ?? Do other people have a better opportunity at success than you ?? If so do you think it right we make a segment of life where we make you a little world so you can be the cheese ??

Yes and my age has propelled me through experiences and a life that have brought me to that reality. We are being legislated and ruled into equality for all right now --- how's that going ??? Basically I would rather rely on myself for my successes and not have to rely on someone to provide or hand me at situation where I can succeed, but that is just me...

When I was in school, we were the little fish in the big pond. Only one team went to the playoffs. Guess what ??, the winner deserved to go. If it wasn't us there was always next year to try again, but sometimes it was us, even being the little fish in the big pond. I coached teams several seasons in this same situation and never considered it to be an alternative to be hacked off into a smaller world to compete. To me winning is it's own reward, if it has to be given to you it isn't worth much. If it is flawed logic that you have to make an effort to win and if you don't you keep trying then I will live with my flawed logic...

So if society wishes to create a false world for kids to grow up in .... plow ahead .... I just won't be on that tractor...

O.K. these deep philosophical differences hurt my brain ....

 

[rainjacktx]

I traveling back home from Hico, and I do not possess the dexterity or patience to type a lengthy post on an iPhone. Give me a couple of hours.

 

[justobserving]

I traveling back home from Hico, and I do not possess the dexterity or patience to type a lengthy post on an iPhone. Give me a couple of hours.

Oakey Dokey !!

Understood, my short and stubby banged up ole fingers don't do too well on an iPhone keyboard either.

 

[rainjacktx]

We can agree to disagree but life's Divisions are self imposed ... you can exist on the playing field you wish to exist and are willing to try and achieve ... but Life's rules and opportunities are there for all of those who wish to persevere and make the effort ... that or you can wait around for someone to legislate your provided opportunity.

The stark reality is - not everyone is a winner - not in our society. It is based on achievers and those who do not. Yes circumstances do keep people from succeeding, but that is called life. There are places, winners and losers everywhere. Are you your own boss ?? Do you have the job or career you want and as successful as you want to be ?? Make all the money you want ?? Do other people have a better opportunity at success than you ?? If so do you think it right we make a segment of life where we make you a little world so you can be the cheese ??

Yes and my age has propelled me through experiences and a life that have brought me to that reality. We are being legislated and ruled into equality for all right now --- how's that going ??? Basically I would rather rely on myself for my successes and not have to rely on someone to provide or hand me at situation where I can succeed, but that is just me...

When I was in school, we were the little fish in the big pond. Only one team went to the playoffs. Guess what ??, the winner deserved to go. If it wasn't us there was always next year to try again, but sometimes it was us, even being the little fish in the big pond. I coached teams several seasons in this same situation and never considered it to be an alternative to be hacked off into a smaller world to compete. To me winning is it's own reward, if it has to be given to you it isn't worth much. If it is flawed logic that you have to make an effort to win and if you don't you keep trying then I will live with my flawed logic...

So if society wishes to create a false world for kids to grow up in .... plow ahead .... I just won't be on that tractor...

O.K. these deep philosophical differences hurt my brain ....

You quite conveniently gloss over legislative intervention as if it can be dismissed as a minor inconvenience. The divisions created by government are woven into the fabric of life. Choose to refuse your Soc Sec check and then we will talk. Some might, but it is the extreme exception to the rule.

You seem to think that the sixman schools need to be taught lessons about the reality of real life. And that by having two divisions in 6-man football those lessons are somehow being put off, or ignored. It is my contention that 6-man schools know all too well about the realities of life. They have front row seats at watching their communities die. And you think that having divisions in 6-man is somehow giving them reason to ignore the hard reality they wake up to and go to bed with every night?

We're in the hottest summer ever here in Texas, and you think that the reality of these kids' families' farms burning up (literally in some cases) is somehow being avoided because the UIL has the unbridled gall to create two divisions in 6-man?

Sorry to burst your philosophical bubble, JO - but the harsh realities of life are inescapable to the average six-man kid.

I wonder if you share this same disdain over the 5 different classes in 11-man football. I mean, going by your logic, Canadian should just nut up and take their lumps against schools like Abilene High, or Amarillo High, right?

 

[justobserving]

You quite conveniently gloss over legislative intervention as if it can be dismissed as a minor inconvenience. The divisions created by government are woven into the fabric of life. Choose to refuse your Soc Sec check and then we will talk. Some might, but it is the extreme exception to the rule.

You seem to think that the sixman schools need to be taught lessons about the reality of real life. And that by having two divisions in 6-man football those lessons are somehow being put off, or ignored. It is my contention that 6-man schools know all too well about the realities of life. They have front row seats at watching their communities die. And you think that having divisions in 6-man is somehow giving them reason to ignore the hard reality they wake up to and go to bed with every night?

We're in the hottest summer ever here in Texas, and you think that the reality of these kids' families' farms burning up (literally in some cases) is somehow being avoided because the UIL has the unbridled gall to create two divisions in 6-man?

Sorry to burst your philosophical bubble, JO - but the harsh realities of life are inescapable to the average six-man kid.

I wonder if you share this same disdain over the 5 different classes in 11-man football. I mean, going by your logic, Canadian should just nut up and take their lumps against schools like Abilene High, or Amarillo High, right?

NO it is not a minor inconvenience it is a Major intervention and crow bar into our lives that any governing body should not have.... period. No I cannot ignore them - but I can stand up against them and try with everything I know to get them changed if I believe that is what should be done.

No schools don't need to be taught lessons. No they are not being ignored but are falling into line with the political correctness of the times.

I understand all to well the reality of farmers. I live on a farm. My father in law farms 1/2 mile down the road (just silaged his corn crop because it didn't make because of the drought after putting in three $30,000 wells trying to make it through). My wife Uncle 1 mile the other way. His son 1/2 mile the same way. Her other uncle 1 mile down the road on the other side of the road. I live in a small community that is shriveling just like all others. I live the problems you expound on every day in spades. I still don't think we should be given special priviledges. If the farmers had some of the freedoms of free markets they should have that they have been denied in the name of fairness and control they would have a better time of it.

Years ago when this two division debate was going on prior to it's inception I believe the Supt at Benjamin was one of the big proponents and pushers. It was only fair because his school was so small. Not to be disparaging to Benjamin but to point out reality - what has their record been since this has gone into effect. Has their trophy case filled up?

It has created a situation where small small schools, not putting them down - enrollment numbers are what they are - try to compete. They just can't - in reality they just can't. Boy am I gonna take it on the chin here... When you have such low numbers, you say you are going to field a team and have to do so a year in advance knowing in all reality you are not going to be able to or be able to finish the season, how is that fair to schools you have scheduled with. When, and this has happened years past, you have to suit up females to finish the season or field a team, how is that right. Sorry not sexist - just realistic. When you have to delve into that athletic pool to compete your better off not.

The top end of DII can compete with the mid to top of D1. Do all the time. I just feel when you have to create a division that is so weak in the majority of its makeup just to be able to put a team on the field, that is just wrong. Get out the shorts and the flags and play flag football. Then when you can't compete or can't field a team it makes no difference.

When you have an organized activity such as 6 man football that is governed by a body it is a serious business. These teams play to win, it is the point to win and like it or not it is about winning. You can say all you want about the participation, good sportmanship and yada yada which I believe in and support 110% but the bottom line is winning. If you don't believe that just ask any coach who was somewhere 3 years and didn't win, that is if you can find him because more than likely he is not there - and not by his choice ...

So to me it boils down to - if you can play and want to play - do so - but don't be expecting to be sliced off into a corner of the world where you are supposedly given a better chance to do so because the standards are lower to be a winner....

I always wonder just really how bad those kids at these small small schools really want to play, KNOWING that every week it is a futile effort. Not because of their effort but because of what situation they have been put in the name of FAIRNESS and equal opportunity.

Apparently you didn't read all of the other posts. Yes I do believe in the classes but they do no get down to such small numbers that it affects their ability to field a team or field a competitive team.

I don't imagine - if you are like me you are the wealthiest man in your town - do you have a special gas station, mechanic, grocery store or doctor's care where you get lower prices than the wealthy guys do ?? There are some in our society that do on a couple of these items but that is legislative "Fairness" ... how do you feel about that ??

This is question that can be argued forever and depending on your belief in how our system should work ... some will ne'er be dissuaded. Good to converse with you again rainjacktx.

 

[rainjacktx]

I just don't see how you can be in favor of the 6 classes of football, and be against having two divisions in 6-man. Division II is taking no more of a slice, nor being given any greater special consideration than Class A is from Class 5A.

It is only logical that when you are dealing with the low end of attendance numbers the eventuality will occur that someone somewhere will not be able to field a team. I don't think that should automatically disqualify smaller 6-man schools from having their own division.

The size differential in 6-man is larger than in any other class in the state. You can have anywhere from 99 kids, down to - say - 10 kids. Name another classification in Texas whose enrollment can vary by a factor of 10.

I'm not the type of person who thinks everyone should get an orange wedge and a trophy just for showing up. It would not bother me if they went back to only allowing the district winners advance to the playoffs. But I think two divisions in 6-man is good for the communities and the players who represent them.

FYI - next year ( 2012 - 2013) 6-man will have its own track division.

 

[justobserving]

Yep they will - one division I believe...

I understand where your point of view is coming from. But I just believe that DII has just created a Division of a whole bunch of schools who can not participate at a competitive level. It has created a Division where it's mid to premier members ( who are normally the same schools year in and out ) can compete. The lower end of DII can't compete with themselves in a truly competitive manner. Many don't finish the season.

You don't see this in Class A. That is the difference. The low end of Class A schools are not in any danger year in and year out of not finishing the season. I know a couple who had the opportunity to go 6 man and didn't that have struggled with numbers near the end of the year but that was their choice, self inflicted pain.

I have been to several 6 man games where you wonder - why are these kids really on the field. It was embarrassing and frankly dangerous in some cases. They were playing schools that were so far superior in ability and athleticism I honestly feared for their safety.

I could tell you how I lived this nightmare in the late 70's as the coach of a small panhandle school that was in an 8 team Class A district. I took the job being told we would have around 22-23 kids out. We started the year with 16. Soon were down to 13. This district had 5 schools rated in the top 10. When we played Wheeler (#1 in the state) they suited up 48 kids and we had 14. We finished the season playing the #2 rated team in the state - who by the way stayed home from the playoffs because only one team went to the playoffs - by suiting up an manager who weighed about 115 lbs soaking wet who had not played since Jr. High to give us 11 players. As an offensive guard he got the privilege and assignment to line up in front of an All-State defensive tackle who weighed around 240. I will say the kid had guts, stayed in there all night and took a beating - literally. We played an entire game with 11 kids. The opposing coach was very accommodating ( he had promised to do so when we rescheduled the game on Monday afternoon after we had cancelled that morning). Our Supt wanted us to play so we found a way. It was not pretty. It really could have been 150 to 0 if they had wanted. I feared for my kids, wasn't my choice to play - was told we would. So I come to this from an experience angle. Lived through it. The kids wondering from week to week whether we could or would even play or not. It wasn't fair to the kids to have them on that roller coaster.

So a little insight here as to just one of the reasons I feel as I do.

So we respect each others opinions knowing there are reasons we have the ones we do.

 

[kbjoe1]

again following your logic class 1A should have to compete aginst 5A... and again im going to tell you if you do the 1A schools will not have anything in their trophy cases along with your logic...

i again will support schools of like size competeing against each other...


this is not for wins or losses it is trying to have a level playing field as possible based on the number of students not athletes within a school district..

just a big what if do you think in boxing it would be best for the sport if the flyweights boxed with the heavy weights?

as far as rural America and Texas,, big cities don’t give a dang and for the most i think that most farmers and ranchers don’t care to much about small towns either except for when there kids are in school and they only care for the schools that their kids are participating.

reading your posts the way it is now is not as it was as you grew up, and i can understand your point we only took one school from the district when i was a kid too. it doesn’t bother me that there are more today i have seen in the different divisions including six man that the second in one district beat the first in another district. that proves the point well enough for me to be supportive of the format

 

[justobserving]

again following your logic class 1A should have to compete aginst 5A... and again im going to tell you if you do the 1A schools will not have anything in their trophy cases along with your logic...

i again will support schools of like size competeing against each other...

this is not for wins or losses it is trying to have a level playing field as possible based on the number of students not athletes within a school district..

just a big what if do you think in boxing it would be best for the sport if the flyweights boxed with the heavy weights?

as far as rural America and Texas,, big cities don’t give a dang and for the most i think that most farmers and ranchers don’t care to much about small towns either except for when there kids are in school and they only care for the schools that their kids are participating.

reading your posts the way it is now is not as it was as you grew up, and i can understand your point we only took one school from the district when i was a kid too. it doesn’t bother me that there are more today i have seen in the different divisions including six man that the second in one district beat the first in another district. that proves the point well enough for me to be supportive of the format

No, following my logic does not pit Class A against Class AAAAA. When you get to the point where you are too small to compete you are too small to compete. Further dividing the competition to carve out a niche where the too small and weak to compete have others too small and to weak to compete against is just ludicrous to me.

Go and check the Power Ratings. About half way down in the DI and DII Divisions the power differential gets to a point of being meaningless. Power ratings of teams that yield 60+ point differences in games with over half the opponents above them seems point to something out. How many Divisions would you have to have so a Benjamin with a Power Rating of 109.44 could be in a Division where it can compete ? The team rated #40 in D II, Cotton Center with a Power Rating of 145.11 is a 36 point favorite in a head to head game with Benjamin. That's competitive? I think not. Now how many schools in DI and DII are rated above that ? Cotton Center is a 145 point underdog to #1 Rated RIchland Springs. How do you level that playing field? DII has been carved out to make schools competitive. The bottom of DII is a 186 point underdog to the #1 rated team in DII ? That's competitive - so what difference did making a DII make - literally None. The top Half of DII is competitive with much of DI. They would be if they were in DI. So the Division really didn't accomplish that much in my eyes.

So small enrollment and weak in ability is just that. It doesn't matter in the small 6 man schools how many divisions. The small and weak will not be able to compete at a meaningful level no matter how many divisions. The Low Low end of the Divisions would be better off playing flag football in my Lowly Humble Opinion.

So how many divisions would you have to have to make how many schools falling below this lower half power level in a competitive situation viable? DIII or maybe DIIII. And what would a State Championship mean in DIIII ?

Oh and by the way .... the farmers and ranchers I know are the ones that still care the most about how their schools are run and how their students are handled. Where do you live that they don't ??? I would really like to know...

Please note that the premiss is based on the fact there are a finite number of players available in smaller six man schools. The making of Divisions becomes a meaningless practice after you get to a certain level. No matter how many Divisions you have you get to a point of no return on grouping. You have a division for those with 20-21 and the 22-22 and then 23-24. But then one 23-24 school has 17 girls and 6 boys but another 23-24 school has 18 boys and 6 girls. So how is this fair? When you get down to these small schools there is no way to parse it out where it is fair. When you get so small there is just no way. If you want to compete when you are a little fish you just have to swim and compete with the bigger ones.

And you are right - it is not the way it was when I grew up. You didn't have political correctness trying to cushion and shield kids from the realities and inevitable disappointments of life. Sometimes you lose. Sometimes there are people that are just better than you are, (that is why they have records and they get broken). Sometimes you have to overcome odds against you to win. You were expected to compete.

Oh by the way - the way they take care of those who are weaker is the 45 Rule. Somebody recognized a long time ago that there are some teams just too weak to be on the field and need help. Don't seem to have that rule in Class A --> AAAAA ... Wonder Why ? Because there is just not as much discrepancy in the teams playing.

A better way to take care of this would be simple. Have one Division. Make use of Granger's Power Ratings. Take the weeks parings, subtract the power ratings and spot the underdog that number of points - not to exceed 45. There is your "level playing field". Still have the 45 Rule. This would serve to prolong the games. The better team would get to play longer because they would have to overcome the 45 points ( the game would have ended there ) and score enough points to get 45 ahead to end the game early. Everyone would get to play more. Isn't that the point, everyone getting to play - would allow more players to play ? This makes as much sense to me as trying to find some MAGIC cutoff point to make everything fair and level.

And yes a 2nd and 3rd place team wins a first round game SOMETIMES ? How often does this happen ? Let's look on the other side of that coin for a second. Do you wanna be the Coach and the team who finished 2nd or 3rd in your District that is pitted against he powerhouse 1st place team in your opposing district ? You are looking getting kicked bad, players injured and a memory for your program you would just as well not have. You are prepping for all intents and purposes no reason. Sure you MIGHT win. More realistically you may escape with your life. So what is the REAL purpose in this format ? I don't think the return is worth it for the one school every couple of years to make good on a second place finish when it would seem to be the outcome is mostly otherwise. This applies to 6 man more than any other division.

You know I would really like to play in the NFL just to make the bucks of base pay player. 'Recken they will make an NFL division so us old guys can play ? Probably not....

And the wheel keeps turning ......

 

[rainjacktx]

When you get to the point that you can't field a team, then you are too small to compete. Up until that point, your argument holds no water, JO. I know what your trying to say, but I think you have argued yourself into a corner and fell obligated to defend that corner.

The only difference between dividing 6-man into two divisions and dividing 1A from 5A is that D-II 6-man is at the bottom limit of the school sizes. Your entire argument is based on schools being too small to compete. Only the school itself (school board, parents, coaches, students) should be allowed to make that decision. In fact, I think they are the only ones who can.

So we're arguing a moot point.

 

[kbjoe1]

every coach wants the opportunity to work with the kids, sure they want their talent to be greater than the team they play. but much much more they want to see the boys become young men and exceed the talent that God gave them but to understand its not the size of the dog but the bite the fight the never say die in the dog.
guess what its not always the best players that they remember not even the best team but the young man, the young lady that after a life time of eating sandwiches, looking at tape, scouting, being dr, trainer, friend, sometimes the only dad a kid may have is what made this vocation worth doing. now can you tell me that you think every child should not have the opportunity to have this in their life. life is alot of swings at the ball ,,, sports and coaches help some kidos to grow into wonderful men and women and it didnt have anything to do with x's or o's..
someone told me one time that little schools dont get the best of teachers, coaches, etc. because their mates want to be close to Wal-Mart to this i say BS if that is what a teacher and coach thinks is more important than the kids they dont deserve the opportunity to serve in our school systems....
by the way im proud of everyone of our staff they could be at any school but chose to be here..