the best thing for a team to do if they feel that the officials were terrible is make sure that the head coach has the card with the officials names that officiated the game and then make sure that the chapter that they are from know that his team WILL NOT use that crew anymore. According to the UIL both teams must agree to the officials used in the game..how do I know this because they say this prior to every game over the loud speaker when the PA announcer reads that "happy feel good" paragraph from the UIL. A head coach can refuse to use an entire chapter. If there is a dispute between the two schools and they cannot agree, say one wanted to use chapter "A" and the other school wanted to use chapter "B" and the school that wanted to use chapter "A" was the home team then the visiting team would be required to pay for the officials and travel. If a school has a supportive Supt. then that is never an issue. If enough coaches and schools refuse to use certain chapters and certain individual officials then the powers that be take notice. Whether it be the chapter in the case of a specific official or the UIL if it is a specific chapter. A good chapter does not want bad officials it makes them look bad and tarnishes their chapter, a good chapter will get this situation corrected. A good official also if in attendance of a poorly officiated game will also contact the chapter of the crew as it makes a it bad for all officials to be blanketed under the impression of "all refs are terrible". No chapter wants a bad reputation, my suggestion is either train them better or drop them from your chapter.
** One (not Two) game ruined for me by the refs **
- Thread starter topher80
- Start date
SixManPhotoGuy
Six-man fan
I was at the T-Rock vs. WV game and was setting by a Ref that has been working sixman games for many years. He was very unhappy with what the refs did in this game! This ref like myself is from around Brownwood and just came to see the game. As for me I will say that I think T-Rock most likely would have won the game, but this was one of the worst called sixman games I have ever seen! I do not know what the radio guys said but I do know that what I saw last light was not good officiating. I would also like to tell both teams that they did a great job and good luck to T-Rock next week!
fajitapete
Six-man fan
The game is over and it is what it is. My comments are more in the direction that I perceive that sixman ball isn't given the respect that these young men deserve. Especially in light of the fact we are in the playoff phase of the season. If you follow some of my ravings you know I take exception to the fact the filed at Shotwell isn't completely repainted so that only sixman lines are visible. Lots of extra lines confuse old and decrepit people like me.
When I made my original statement about the officiating at the Gordon/Savoy game it wasn't that they were calling in favor of one team but rather the fact they were a poor excuse of a crew. I was frustrated by the lack of signals on the PATs as well as the overall conduct of the game. My opinion is that the first responsibility of a crew is to keep these men safe and secondly to use good judgement in controlling the game.
I decided to do some digging, thanks to the power of the internet and search engines this is what I found.
In the official NCAA rule book, (the basis for 99.99% of the UIL rulebook) and there are 47 official signals for use by the officiating crew. The head nod to signal a touchdown , field goal or point after is not among them. But surprisingly there is no reference to actually having to give a signal. But, it does state that officiating responsibilities and mechanics are specified in the current edition of the Football Officials Manual.
That reference is a little harder to locate, but with the aid of the internet I stumbled on the 2011 TASO manual that describes the conduct of the officials.
In general;
SECTION 1. GENERAL PRINCIPLES
ARTICLE 5 SIGNALS
All signals should be given promptly, distinctly and conspicuously as they are the non-verbal communications tools we use to inform
In regards to a PAT:
“On field goal attempts B & L will take positions slightly behind the goal posts. When the kick
is made, adjust positions to rule on kick. When the ball strikes the cross bar, B is solely
responsible for the result of the attempt and will give the appropriate signal. B and L should
use either signal #5 or signal #10 as appropriate.”
There you have it, officials that clearly were not the cream of the crop were calling the game. Come on, these teams and these young men deserve the absolute best when they have reached this level of play in what will be for some the last organized football they get to play. My big disclaimer is that for most games I watch, there is a great crew out there and they do a great job.
The TASO manual is here:
http://www.intra-focus.com/taso/docs/20 ... 006_11.pdf
When I made my original statement about the officiating at the Gordon/Savoy game it wasn't that they were calling in favor of one team but rather the fact they were a poor excuse of a crew. I was frustrated by the lack of signals on the PATs as well as the overall conduct of the game. My opinion is that the first responsibility of a crew is to keep these men safe and secondly to use good judgement in controlling the game.
I decided to do some digging, thanks to the power of the internet and search engines this is what I found.
In the official NCAA rule book, (the basis for 99.99% of the UIL rulebook) and there are 47 official signals for use by the officiating crew. The head nod to signal a touchdown , field goal or point after is not among them. But surprisingly there is no reference to actually having to give a signal. But, it does state that officiating responsibilities and mechanics are specified in the current edition of the Football Officials Manual.
That reference is a little harder to locate, but with the aid of the internet I stumbled on the 2011 TASO manual that describes the conduct of the officials.
In general;
SECTION 1. GENERAL PRINCIPLES
ARTICLE 5 SIGNALS
All signals should be given promptly, distinctly and conspicuously as they are the non-verbal communications tools we use to inform
In regards to a PAT:
“On field goal attempts B & L will take positions slightly behind the goal posts. When the kick
is made, adjust positions to rule on kick. When the ball strikes the cross bar, B is solely
responsible for the result of the attempt and will give the appropriate signal. B and L should
use either signal #5 or signal #10 as appropriate.”
There you have it, officials that clearly were not the cream of the crop were calling the game. Come on, these teams and these young men deserve the absolute best when they have reached this level of play in what will be for some the last organized football they get to play. My big disclaimer is that for most games I watch, there is a great crew out there and they do a great job.
The TASO manual is here:
http://www.intra-focus.com/taso/docs/20 ... 006_11.pdf
dataguy
Six-man observer
Wow, Pete. Good work. I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought that ref was a little off.
eagle_man80":1kt84wno said:
I really hope I am misunderstanding this.
4 or 5 man crews have two under the post. They should never give only nods to the R for good or bad. The have the entire thing and signal good or no good. The mechanic you sugest sounds a lot like indoor football PAT and field goal mechanics. If R is looking for nods who the heqq is watching the kicker and holder?
A couple of things. Most officials could care less who wins or looses a game. I never met an official who showed bias. I have met some not so swift of ability.
Playoffs are assiged variety of ways. If our chapter gets a six man call we usually given names of guys both coaches want. If not then they ask for lists of guys with division and experiance. Some cases we are advised provide strongest available. To us this means use guys who still work and/ or train those for 6 man and rules and have exposure to it consistently.
So usually this is up to chapters when you are just sending guys. Yes a strong 11 man crew who has very little 6 man exposure over the years could look like rookies out there all at once.
golfman1110
11-man fan
I understand that people gripe about the officials as they do every game. I was an official for 5 years and got the privilege of officiating a state championship 6 man game along with a semi-final game. I know that officials miss calls as they are only human. However, to bash an official saying that the game was called unfair is really unfair. We see things differently on the field than people see in the stands. Everyone is an expert in the stands and the perspective is different. Im sure there may have been missed calls but when a team gets beat by the mercy rule, Im not sure that the refs were a part of it. Whenever I was officiating in the playoffs, we let the kids determine the outcome. Sure we missed some calls but the coaches knew that we werent going to decide the game by our flag throwing. Coach Reed is a class act coach and his teams have always been very classy! If a person wants to gripe about the officials, then get out and join a chapter and get you a taste of it on the field. Good Luck Throckmorton the rest of the way!
Refs?
I umpired softball, slow-pitch, for many years up in the Amarillo area. My brother is one of the top fast pitch umps in the state and does a ton of the playoff games. I am saying that so you will know I know it from both sides.
I go back to a game against Newcastle, no Newcastle, I am not bashing you guys, it was a long time ago.
We need to go back to 1983. Newcastle won the district championship against us, Gordon, with a score of 28 to 22.
The refs were almost an hour late showing up. Kind of threw the game off to start with. It was a close game all the way through. I was a junior, starting center. With just seconds left int he game Coach Campbell called a 60 pass. This was a post pattern to me. I was in the end zone and the ball was going int he defenders hands. I pushed him and caught the ball. Offensive pass interference. I was wrong here.
Next play we go to a spread where I am an end. The runner takes the ball down the right sideline, he is about to get tackled. I come across the field and hit the defensive player in the chest and knock him out of bounds. They called me for clipping. The runner had made it to the end zone so we would of had a tie game with the extra point to come.
Clock has now expired and we lost the district championship. I was very upset and wanted to do something about this. I wrote a long letter explaining the game in great detail as there were other things I believed had gone wrong. I looked to see who I could send it to and then it occurred to me that the game was over and it would make no difference who I sent the letter to as it would not change the game. Did the refs effect the outcome here? I believe they did.
The next year we wanted to get revenge on Newcastle so we went in and played hard, tough football. The final score? They beat us 50 to 28. LOL
In 1983 both of our teams lost in the second round of the playoffs? Did all of this cost us a state championship? Nope...we would of still lost int he second round. LOL
As a side note. My senior year we had a basketball official that called a ton of our games, Vernon Walker was his name. We won very few games so we blamed him for our losses. In the annual that year is a picture of us at practice with the caption "VERNON WALKER FAN CLUB". It was not his fault, he called good games.
Andy
I umpired softball, slow-pitch, for many years up in the Amarillo area. My brother is one of the top fast pitch umps in the state and does a ton of the playoff games. I am saying that so you will know I know it from both sides.
I go back to a game against Newcastle, no Newcastle, I am not bashing you guys, it was a long time ago.
We need to go back to 1983. Newcastle won the district championship against us, Gordon, with a score of 28 to 22.
The refs were almost an hour late showing up. Kind of threw the game off to start with. It was a close game all the way through. I was a junior, starting center. With just seconds left int he game Coach Campbell called a 60 pass. This was a post pattern to me. I was in the end zone and the ball was going int he defenders hands. I pushed him and caught the ball. Offensive pass interference. I was wrong here.
Next play we go to a spread where I am an end. The runner takes the ball down the right sideline, he is about to get tackled. I come across the field and hit the defensive player in the chest and knock him out of bounds. They called me for clipping. The runner had made it to the end zone so we would of had a tie game with the extra point to come.
Clock has now expired and we lost the district championship. I was very upset and wanted to do something about this. I wrote a long letter explaining the game in great detail as there were other things I believed had gone wrong. I looked to see who I could send it to and then it occurred to me that the game was over and it would make no difference who I sent the letter to as it would not change the game. Did the refs effect the outcome here? I believe they did.
The next year we wanted to get revenge on Newcastle so we went in and played hard, tough football. The final score? They beat us 50 to 28. LOL
In 1983 both of our teams lost in the second round of the playoffs? Did all of this cost us a state championship? Nope...we would of still lost int he second round. LOL
As a side note. My senior year we had a basketball official that called a ton of our games, Vernon Walker was his name. We won very few games so we blamed him for our losses. In the annual that year is a picture of us at practice with the caption "VERNON WALKER FAN CLUB". It was not his fault, he called good games.
Andy
I made some people mad when I called slow pitch. Once my locker was broken into and my extra set of uniforms was stolen with my car keys. I got a ride home and called the police. They took me back up to the field and my van had been torn up inside, a computer stolen and just a big mess. Did I deserve this?
I had a low deductible on my insurance so I actually ended up making money on this whole thing, the insurance even payed for my uniform.
Andy
I had a low deductible on my insurance so I actually ended up making money on this whole thing, the insurance even payed for my uniform.
Andy
No Rick you read it right. I didn't like it, but I'm not white hat either. Nor have I called a game within the past two years with that official either. I'm not agreeing with the officials who chose to call with those signals, if that is what they did, I'm just saying I have seen some officials do it.
Shad Kline
Six-man fan
We should apply the "if you don't like the way I do my job, then you come do it" to all aspects of the free world.
Hey hon, I didn't like the way that nurse gave you a shot, so from now on, I'm just gonna do it myself.
This hamburger is over done, get out of the way, I'll just cook it myself.
Coach, you didn't play my little johnny, you're fired, i'll just coach the team myself.
or.........
maybe we could just continue to expect the people that get paid to do a job to do it to the best of their abilities. Unfortunately, there are not enough refs. I have every intention of doing just what you mentioned, but not while my kids are still playing. In a couple of years, I will join a chapter and call games. But until then, I'm gonna continue to expect those that do it, to do it at their best, if they don't, I will continue to complain!
Hey hon, I didn't like the way that nurse gave you a shot, so from now on, I'm just gonna do it myself.
This hamburger is over done, get out of the way, I'll just cook it myself.
Coach, you didn't play my little johnny, you're fired, i'll just coach the team myself.
or.........
maybe we could just continue to expect the people that get paid to do a job to do it to the best of their abilities. Unfortunately, there are not enough refs. I have every intention of doing just what you mentioned, but not while my kids are still playing. In a couple of years, I will join a chapter and call games. But until then, I'm gonna continue to expect those that do it, to do it at their best, if they don't, I will continue to complain!
kbjoe1
Six-man fan
hornkeeper could not have said it better.... there is not anything that needs to be added!!!!
rickref72":3tuymw1c said:
This year I have seen 4 man crews with one under the post and I have seen 4 man crews with two under the post. I work the chains and so I have asked how they determine whether there is one under or two. The response I received was that it was the white hat's decision. So are there clear-cut guidelines about the proper mechanics for extra points? Or is it left to the white hat's discretion?
Based on pages 42-43 of this manual, it indicates that there should only be one (L) under the posts when using a 4 man crew.
http://www.intra-focus.com/taso/docs/2011TASO4OfficialMechanicsManual 06_11.pdf
Those people are doing it to the best of their abilities. It's not their fault that people in the stands, who are not down on the field seeing and hearing that the refs see and hear, don't know what is going on. Like I said in an earlier post, every chapter will have at least a few White Hats who are on a power trip and will want to do things their way. I don't like it either. But, I have heard that kind of point made before though. And it is always by someone who says "I can't do it right now", or "I will do it later". Don't make excuses, make it happen.
BDog72":z31qplr9 said:
Check out page 59 - it applies to six man only. Six man always has two under the goalposts, unless they don't have a clue what they are doing.
Also, page 60 says that the Line Judge should give no signal if the kick is good, but I can't say I've seen anyone do that.
You might want to get the 2012 Mechanics manual as well. But that's the gist of it.
Shad Kline
Six-man fan
Don't throw around the word "excuse" to make your argument sound better! I believe waiting until my kids are no longer playing is a valid reason, not exactly an excuse. And, as far as making it happen.... I reffed 5 sub-varsity games this season, and I study the rulebook, and even I know that a ten yard penalty from the 15 is half the distance to the goal, not the full 10 yards. The "if you don't like how I do my job, then you do it" still carries no weight with me. I don't want to do your job, I want YOU to do your job, that you get paid to do, that you signed up to do.eagle_man80":3tcunvnz said:
I do my job. And I will continue to tell you to get out there and do a batter job as long as officials are wrongly criticized. This thread started out titled "Two games ruined for me by the refs", and because some people have gotten on here and taken up for officials the thread has since been renamed to "one game ruined for me by refs". Now, if you saw someone get out there and mark off the wrong distance then yes that person is wrong. Complain about that particular official. My statements are towards those who want to put all officials in the same catagory, when in fact they are not. You will have those who are either new to the job, or are on a power trip. Then you have those who do it for the love and integrity of the game, like me. (trust me, we sure don't do it for the pay...) But as long as people get on here and bash officials when in fact they don't know what is going on then I will tell them to get out there and do it themselves.
Shad Kline
Six-man fan
Ok, my bad, what I should have said is. I was at that game, (the one of the original two) and I feel that THOSE refs should study a little more. I know they do it because they love it, but so do the kids, coaches, fans, etc. And it not fair for them to be saddled with playing a PLAYOFF game with sub-par refs. Maybe they had a bad night, I don't know, but know the rules first. Get the basics right, and maybe the other calls wouldn't be in question. Gosh, I can't wait till I have the time to start reffing more than sub-varsity games, my momma always told me "if you want something done right, then do it yourself.". I would like to apologize to ALL of the six-man world for not being available for games for the next five years, so if you get a bad ref, that's on me from now on.