of forfeits and Athens

[granger]

There have been several questions arising from the fact that Athens had a player declared ineligible, then left TCAF but is wanting to continue to play...

1. They reported they played Lewisville Temple Christian two weeks ago (allegedly after dropping from TCAF--I have read 2 separate reports of this) with said ineligible player. LTC claims this was a scrimmage and says ACP forfeited.

2. This player, who has been declared ineligible by both the UIL and TCAF has played in all of their games. (from what I understand)

3. QED, should all of their games count as forfeits?

I have no dog in this hunt. I am on a fact-finding mission.

 

[oldfat&bald]

I ain't got a dog in the hunt either. My question is, if they had a league schedule set up and then dropped out of the league, why wouldn't their games count as forfeits?

 

[phostoukosmou]

I think as far as the League is concerened they are forfiets. However, for the purpose of the great "toy", I think you should continue to use the scores that are reported. This board (though it is a great resource and entertaining) is not official in anyway shape or form. So arguing whether the game "counts" or not is pointless. I say lets have fun with the"toy" and let the rest of it work itself out. Just my thoughts.

 

[High Plains Drifter]

My dog is on the couch so I am with Granger. The thing that is bothersome to me is the trouble with this group reflects on all non-UIL schools, at least in my eyes. Things like this have happened like this as long as I have been associated with sixman. This and olden times stuff made me not schedule non-UIL folks and probably would not if was up to me today.

True, there are some non-UIL folks who are exceptions, and yes, UIL schools have problems, but folks, do not know the answer but something needs to be done, if you want to rise up in the sixman world.

Just my opinion and there is no relation to anyone who uses that name.

 

[oldfat&bald]

Don't some if the private leagues use the Toy to seed their playoffs?

 

[phostoukosmou]

T-CAL did at one point but does not anymore.

 

[phostoukosmou]

My dog is on the couch so I am with Granger. The thing that is bothersome to me is the trouble with this group reflects on all non-UIL schools, at least in my eyes. Things like this have happened like this as long as I have been associated with sixman. This and olden times stuff made me not schedule non-UIL folks and probably would not if was up to me today.

True, there are some non-UIL folks who are exceptions, and yes, UIL schools have problems, but folks, do not know the answer but something needs to be done, if you want to rise up in the sixman world.

Just my opinion and there is no relation to anyone who uses that name.

I agree that it does cause some distrust with non-UIL schools. However, something was done, action was taken, and they are now an indepedent team. Not trying to re-open old wounds on the board just saying that action was taken.

 

[coachtim]

The Temple game was agreed to be a forfeit prior to the supposively game in question. Technically they were still in TCAF at the time the game was scheduled. Temple played only 6 players that were not starters for all purposes. This is by no mean to slam Athens. Athens had agreed to play the player & let the coach, coach. The game was a forfeit and the score that was sent was not correct.

MaxPrep has it right and that is what is used currently for accurracy. Just a shame that this site is not accurrate to reflect the correct measure. Athens will rebound and we wish them all the success. Athens did what they had to for the player and I totally believe that the school had good intentions. I think the perception of the coach & negative attention he brought to the program. The coach is a very good guy, just appeared that winning was the motivator. Frankly, not to down play the player, they could win without him, which leads me to believe that it was more than about the player. I feel for the player because he has experienced some hardships in life. I hope he gets the blessing for attending Athens which is a positive move for the player.... I wish & pray the best for him, the coach, and their program. There is good people over there and it is a shame they all have had to go through this...

 

[olderelk]

MaxPrep has it right and that is what is used currently for accurracy. Just a shame that this site is not accurrate to reflect the correct measure.

Granger, lifegatesports, and others go to great lengths to collect the correct scores/provide accurate information (which is what Granger is trying to do now) in a timely manner. IMO they do a great job. Maxpreps can't hold a candle to this site. A very small percentage of the schools report their scores, an even smaller percentage report their stats. Those that do can provide their fans with valuable info. Very few choose to do so. As a result it may be a good thing for a few schools, but overall it is extremely lacking.

 

[freeagent]

Couple of things:

1. This is all proof of your reputation is going to suffer longer than the season. Although the coach from this school has elected to step aside (and there is some question from what I understand if he resigned before or after their last game, as I've been told he was on the sidelines for that game), the school is going to suffer from the reputation that they earned over these last couple months. As I mentioned on other posts, if I were a school administrator or athletic director, I would not be scheduling any contests at any level in any sport with this school at this time and certainly not until they have affiliated with a recognized league (TAPPS, TCAF or T-CAL)...and even then, I might wait awhile unless I was assigned to a district with that school.

2. Certainly, the school(s) involved can count games as a forfeit if they wish or if their league deems the game was forfeited, they can vacate the offending school's victories. Sounds like that is what may have been done, officially or unofficially in this case.

3. BUT, there is a rule that many leagues have -- once two teams have agreed to start a contest (with or without "approved officials"), the result of the game stands. And that is the position Granger takes here. Sixmanfootball.com is not in the position to govern or rule on issues of player eligibility or league rules. We have taken a stand that we only count games played against legitimate high school teams (including home school groups or teams that have been accepted into an established league), which is a rule that is compliant with rules in UIL and TAPPS; both of which prohibit high school teams playing club or non-school teams.

I guess this fits under "lessons learned." If somebody offers to forfeit the game to you BEFORE the game begins, consider that a WORD OF WARNING. I think I'd take the forfeit instead of finding out why it was offered by "playing the game anyway."

4. Maxpreps certainly is a popular site. But one of the problems with the exponential growth of the internet and the databases that have appeared is that it's tough to report EVERY SCORE EVERYWHERE. I'm lucky enough to get sixmanfootball.com, lscsn.com, tapps.net (which we must report by rule), the AP (most weeks) and the local newpaper/radio done every week.

 

[kbjoe1]

my 2 cents again.. i dont think the scores should count for either team thus it does not effect either over all placing a 1-0 score is not realative.

 

[granger]

Coachtim

Please stay away from the cheap shots you take at me on the board. It is not becoming. I have been doing this a long time (almost 20 years now) and I can honestly say I have never had an issue like this. I prefer to have a little more information before I go changing scores. Information that should've come forward by now.

Honestly this is bigger than one score. This actuallly relates to their whole season. If your game was a forfeit, shouldn't they all? I understand your frustration but there seems to be more to this story. I would love to have anyone from ACP or TCAF verify this or any other score should be a forfeit before I start changing things all over the solace. That's all

 

[coachtim]

There is no chap shots Granger. Lifegate had requested us send him emails to reflect. He agreed with that it should be a forfeit as well. Your view that if a game is played, you should count is right. It was played as a forfeit and should reflect that. Obviously, the coach that is no longer at Athens reported the incorrect score.

That is it and all to the story Granger. I have been coach for 18 years, played/coach at every level. So if you are offended I apologize and was not the intent. It does prove that you get it wrong though..

 

[freeagent]

There is no chap shots Granger. Lifegate had requested us send him emails to reflect. He agreed with that it should be a forfeit as well. Your view that if a game is played, you should count is right. It was played as a forfeit and should reflect that. Obviously, the coach that is no longer at Athens reported the incorrect score.

That is it and all to the story Granger. I have been coach for 18 years, played/coach at every level. So if you are offended I apologize and was not the intent. It does prove that you get it wrong though..

Wait a minute ... I also said to you that I would defer to Granger's decision and leave it up to him. The whole situation concerning that school's participation and league status are a really big headache of when who did what ... and although I do have empathy with your position, I've also been told by TCAF that their rule is if you play the game, it counts.

Again, the moral of the story is this ... ANYTIME a coach offers to FORFEIT a game to you in advance, DON'T AGREE to "play the game anyway." Like Darrell Royal used to say about passing the football ... three things can happen, and two of them are bad.

 

[bulldawgs]

We should be careful how we respond when we are hurt. You were lied to and it didnt sit well. That is not Granger's fault. He threw this out there for discussion. Sad to say, but I dont think there is a good answer. The game was played and it should count. Now I know Granger doesnt count scrimmages, so if you have documentation to that effect, I would recommend you send it him. Otherwise if a game is played then it should be counted. Just my opinion

 

[coachGtca]

Let me clarify a few things on here.

1. I am the head coach for Temple Christian Academy
2. I definitely appreciate the great lengths that Granger is going through to get the information correct for the Temple vs. Athens game that took place a couple of weeks ago.
3. I agree with Lifegate that if they offer a forfeit, the opposing team should have serious questions about playing.
4. Here is why we played Athens - The Thursday before the game was to have been played, I began hearing whisperings that #44 from Athens had been ruled inelgible. Throughout the day, there were several phone calls between myself and TCAF, and myself and Athens. I had been informed that Athens had two choices, either they could withdraw from TCAF or they could not play #44 and their coach would sit for one game. I had decided then to not play. Why risk further injury to my players (especially when I only had seven, five of which had never played football before)? It was then that I emailed Coach Ross and told him of my decision. I then received a reply from him saying that if we didn't play, we would have to be the ones to forfeit the game. Because if we ended up not showing up, #44 wouldn't play, and it would be a district win for them. BUT if we showed up to play, #44 would play, and the game would count as a forfeit.

Easy enough decision to make right? We play, so we don't have to forfeit a district game.

What the head coach failed to tell me was that they had already decided to pull out of TCAF before our game was played, making our game irrelevant. IF I had known they had already pulled out, I would have called the coach up and told him that we were not going to play. It was not until Sunday afternoon AFTER the day we played the game, that I was told they had pulled from TCAF and were playing an independent schedule. We were told this game would be counted as a forfeit in our favor.

I have no agenda here to get the score removed. I'm not going to lie, it would be nice to see us having a 3-2 record, with a higher ranking. But football is played on the field and as long as we still have a shot at the playoffs, and a first round home game (which we still do) that is what matters.

Whatever decision Granger makes I'll be fine with, I understand on here the rankings don't mean a whole lot, especially in the private school sector. I appreciate all the hard work Granger and others do to make this site possible. I'll always refer to this site.

That is my take on this whole situation. I have been very quiet on this matter until now, when I felt it necessary to let people know my take on the situation as it happened with my football team.

Coach "G"

 

[coachGtca]

"I understand on here the rankings don't mean a whole lot, especially in the private school sector"


After reading this, I realized it may be misconstrued. My original meaning was that the rankings have no bearing on what happens when the regular season is over and theplayoffs begin. Not that the rankings don't literally mean anything. I hope that clarifies and doesn't offend.


Coach "G"

 

[granger]

Coach G

Holy cow! I knew there had to be more to this story. It just seemed incomplete.

Like I stated, I am not going to be intimidated into making a decision here one way or another, I just want the facts. You went into this being told either play or forfeit, when you were told you were going to get a forfeit. That's a different story.

I appreciate you taking the time to send me this. I know there is even more to the story than this on their side... And we can see how that's starting to play out.

I will sort this out over the weekend when I get back into town, but it looks like this game needs to be wiped off the books or a forfeit.

I still wonder whether ALL of their games should be declared forfeits where this kid played.

 

[Shad Kline]

Coach G,
That was very good of you to come on here and give those facts, even though you didn't have to. Very stand up thing to do. It would be great if politics didn't get in the way of football. Lately it seems as if football is getting in the way of politics. While I agree that you should definitely get the win, with a 1-0 forfeit. I think the tool used to rate and rank teams would be more accurate using the score from the actual game played, just as if they were an independant. This is of course nothing more than my opinion. Thanks again for the clarification.

 

[allen]

I will also say at the time of the player coming to our school there was no rule in TCAF that if a player is uneligable to play for UIL they could not play for TCAF. I just wanted to throw that out there.