Going for Two

[6manobserver]

I really wanted to put this on the regular sixman board, but thought this was a more appropriate place to do it even though I don't think this board gets as much reading on it. I really want people to tell me what they think about this.

Why do most sixman teams deem it necessary to go for two points when it is not appropriate in most circumstances in 11man? I understand that you have to kick in sixman and actually take the ball across in 11man, but why is it necessary in one game and only used as a last resort in the other game?

 

[oopty-oop]

I would think it would have do with your odds of making the point conversion in sixman should be much higher in sixman than 11 man. You gotta realize that the gap between percentages in 11 man are much greater between going for 1pt and trying for 2pts. Say a team can make the extra point at around 90% in 11 man, and they can make their 2pt conversion at about 40%. That may be plausible. While in sixman, say a team will convert their kick (2pts) about 60% of the time, and they can run it in maybe 80% of the time. There seems to be much less of a gap between the percentages of kicking vs running the ball in in the sixman game than there is in the 11 man game due to the difficulty in 11man of running the ball in from the 3. So it would work out greater in the long run to try for 2 in the sixman game. This is all hypothetical, but I think this would have a lot to do with it.

 

[CRSARM]

I really wanted to put this on the regular sixman board, but thought this was a more appropriate place to do it even though I don't think this board gets as much reading on it. I really want people to tell me what they think about this.

Why do most sixman teams deem it necessary to go for two points when it is not appropriate in most circumstances in 11man? I understand that you have to kick in sixman and actually take the ball across in 11man, but why is it necessary in one game and only used as a last resort in the other game?

Regular six man board? On here right? Is there another site you are talking about? Just curious.

When I was in HS from 81 to 84 at Gordon we kicked every extra point. I can't remember a miss but I am sure there was 1 or 2 in the 4 years. It was automatic back then, you just figured 8 points for every touchdown. I do not see as many kicks in games now as there used to be.

Field goals?? When was the last time you seen one of these kicked in 6-man? All of my years I seen it tried one time by Strawn and it was missed. Can't remember why they tried it unless it was my sophomore year where they won.

Andy

 

[rainjacktx]

I've seen one field goal attempted in high school - and it was missed.

Our 8th grade team kicked a 35 yarder once in a game. That was the only time I have seen a successful field goal attempt in any 6-man game.

 

[freeagent]

I think I've seen one game where two field goals were kicked against us; we may have hit three field goals in 7 years of football (which may be one on the high side).

The first time somebody tried a field goal against us was a team beating us 34-8. They called a time out with a few seconds left to set up the try, which really ticked us off. We blocked the thing.

Anyway, sixman football has one problem with the place kicking game ... you have only four guys to stop six (as you have a holder and kicker busy with other things). It's easier to get penetration on the kicker than in crowded field football (where nine guys can stop 11; and if two guys get through, by the time they get near the kicker, they're watching the result with the rest of us).

I'm not sure that a lot of six man schools (especially in the private school ranks) spend much time developing a kicker. If I were coaching, I'd find some freshman who had a bit of talent, spend time with him, encourage him to spend some time at kicker camp in the summer and try and grow a kicker for a couple years.

 

[6manobserver]

Regular six man board? On here right? Is there another site you are talking about? Just curious.

Sorry, I just meant the "sixman talk" board (I guess I should say 'forum') rather than "other football."

I get on so many times and don't ever scroll all the way down to this end of the board to see the topics going on down here. I would think that many people do the same thing and only go in the "sixman talk" forum most of the time.

Thank you guys for your thoughts. Really, what I want to know is why they don't go for two more times in 11man. I feel like it would not be that hard to pick up three yards. Run whatever you call your version of the "wild-cat" and give the 'cat' some options and go for two. I think they would pick it up more often than they think. I don't think anybody can have any kind of percentages about how often they could get it, because nobody does it.

If I was a team that was in the top ten in scoring or scored a lot of points, I would want to go for two every time. Even if you pick it up 50% of the time, it is just like kicking the PAT every time.

What do you guys think?

 

[rainjacktx]

In 11-man, you have 22 guys packed into a 12-13 yard area. In 6-man, you have only 12. Much harder to score on a run or pass in 11-man than in 6-man. Conversely, it is much easier in 11-man to just kick the ball over the 20 people for the PAT.

If the success rate were higher for 2-point conversions in 11-man, you would probably see more teams doing it.

 

[markf]

Few years ago,Saw Rule beat Calvert on a long field goal
as time expired,was in Hico,week 0, 4 points

 

[donhardin]

markf

Didn't Rule have to kick it like three different times due to flags? Stephen Pace I believe was the kicker for Rule. That was a great game.

Have you heard anything special about Hico for next season?

 

[donhardin]

2005 I think Rule 40 Calvert 38???

Don Hardin
Abilene

 

[6manobserver]

If the success rate were higher for 2-point conversions in 11-man, you would probably see more teams doing it.

I guess my point is, how can anyone even pretend they know what the success rate is because nobody ever goes for two (in 11-man). I think more teams should do it I guess is all I'm trying to say. And it would make the more boring 11-man a bit more interesting.

Then scores really might be higher than they used to be, in reference to the "record book" thread on the other forum.

 

[oopty-oop]

If the success rate were higher for 2-point conversions in 11-man, you would probably see more teams doing it.

I guess my point is, how can anyone even pretend they know what the success rate is because nobody ever goes for two (in 11-man). I think more teams should do it I guess is all I'm trying to say. And it would make the more boring 11-man a bit more interesting.

Then scores really might be higher than they used to be, in reference to the "record book" thread on the other forum.

It is incorrect to say that nobody ever goes for two in 11 man. It happens all the time. Just not to the frequency that it does in 6 man. Here is an exerpt from a column written by Greg Davis in 2005 that touches on the issue better than I would be able to...

"With the conversion rate of success being approximately 40 percent or more, the thinking is that, assuming you score the two touchdowns needed, you are likely to convert on at least one of the two point tries. If it happens to be the first attempt, then you are in position to kick the extra point for the win after the second score. If you convert only the second try then you end up tied, and in this case Nebraska wins the National Championship (in the days before college overtimes existed).

Of course if a coach actually employed this strategy and lost because of it he would likely be run out of town. Given the intense scrutiny coaches are under these days they almost have to take a more conservative approach.

NFL analyst Phil Simms is one who would like to see much fewer attempts saying that the two-point conversion is "ridiculously overused." Maybe coaches are starting to listen to Simms as two point attempts in the NFL have been on the decline in recent years. In the first few years of its inception since 1994 there were roughly 100 attempts per year. In 2003 there were only 68 attempts while last year saw a slight increase back to 74 attempts. Oddly enough, the success rate continues to improve. Last year NFL teams converted 50 percent of their two point tries. This year so far in college percentages are up to 50 percent as well with 24 of 48 successful attempts."

So according to this, with successful 2pt conversion attempts being at around 50%, why would a coach subject himself to such critisizm by going for 2 in situations where he does not have to? I understand going for 2 when the situation calls for it, but it seems to be too much of a risk for marginal reward.

 

[6manobserver]

I was wrong to say never. What I meant was hardly ever.

with 24 of 48 successful attempts.

48 attempts is basically never. In just the FBS games alone, there have got to be 500 touchdowns scored every week. 48 attempts all year? That is basically never. And how can any one team use the percentage of all college football games, from all year to justify whether or not that one team should go for two. I think teams like Texas, Alabama, Florida, or any of the other Top Ten would have a percentage closer to 75% or 80% if they would actually try it.

 

[oopty-oop]

A top 10 team might get that large of a percentage going for 2... as long as they were not playing a top 10 defense. 3 yards isn't automatic in 11man football... especially with a team backed up in their own endzone. I understand you reason for wanting teams to go for 2 more often in 11 man.... but I have always been of the opinion that a bird in the hand was worth 2 in the bush. Take the points that you are given. Sure, if you make the 2pt conversion, that puts pressure on the other team to make their 2pt conversions in order to keep up.... However, if you miss just one 2 point conversion, now you have to play catch up and are forced to make a 2 point conversion just to tie the team that has been kicking extra points... And like I said, that added to the unbelievable scrutiny you would receive as a coach, it would be more than most coaches would be willing to risk. Look at the unorthodox style of Mike Leach.... Had he kicked the filed goal in the Houston game instead of going for it on 4th down... a mere yard and a half from the goal line, Tech has an opportunity to win the game. And now he is catching hell for it.

 

[markf]

markf

Didn't Rule have to kick it like three different times due to flags? Stephen Pace I believe was the kicker for Rule. That was a great game.

Have you heard anything special about Hico for next season?

Beats Me,i was thinking it was the first try?
Little story behind that kick
Kick Good,Game over
Rule players Celebrating
Football was laying against the fence
next to Walt Garrison,
Everyone is packing to leave
I pick the ball up and look around
no one seem to want it
So ,Now sits on my mantle
a Walt Garrison autographed football
in White Marker.... :mrgreen:

 

[donhardin]

markf said

So ,Now sits on my mantle
a Walt Garrison autographed football
in White Marker.... :mrgreen:

How cool is that???!!!!!!

Don Hardin
Abilene

 

[6manobserver]

Sure, if you make the 2pt conversion, that puts pressure on the other team to make their 2pt conversions in order to keep up.... However, if you miss just one 2 point conversion, now you have to play catch up and are forced to make a 2 point conversion just to tie the team that has been kicking extra points... And like I said, that added to the unbelievable scrutiny you would receive as a coach, it would be more than most coaches would be willing to risk.

But why is it that in sixman it is okay to go for 2 and risk not getting it, but in 11-man it isn't worth the risk? That is what I don't understand. Is it just becasue we "know" we are going to score 6-8 or more touchdowns in 6-man and we don't "know" that in 11-man? Or is it because we think that our percentage in 11-man would be around 30 - 40% and the percentage in 6-man is higher? Or is it simply tradition in both sports respectively?

Maybe it has to do with college games that "really matter," and highschool games don't? I don't buy it.

If it is tradition, what would it take for anyone to change the fact that in 11-man going for 2 points is only in desperation? Is there anybody in the game (highschool, college, or NFL) that you think would try to change the tradition? Leach maybe?

 

[oopty-oop]

It is the same as the reason that kicking for the conversion is worth 2 points, while running it in is 1 point in sixman, and vice versa in 11 man. With more field, it is easier to run the ball in from 3 yards out than it is to kick it with fewer athletes blocking up front. Trust this... if kicking the conversions in 11 man was worth 2 points, they would be going for two every time....

 

[CRSARM]

markf said

So ,Now sits on my mantle
a Walt Garrison autographed football
in White Marker.... :mrgreen:

How cool is that???!!!!!!

Don Hardin
Abilene

Gotcha!!! I have been looking for that football for 12 years now. You need to give it back, I saw it first. MINE MINE MINE!!!

LOL

Andy

 

[6manobserver]

You are right oopty-oop.

I don't know about the history of sixman much. Has it always been worth 2 points to kick in 6-man? I wonder how they decided to make it that way. I really do think some 11-man teams would have a much higher percentage of getting the two points than they think they have if they ran it more consistently though.