Tackling Strategies

Evidently what BE does works...Im not sure if you just heard what you said. I have a feeling you didn't read this post from the begining. Im pretty sure as a head coach you should work on your offense. Have your assistants like yourself who think that a defense will dominate all teams take over the defensive schemes. Not completely, but the one who is responsible during a game. I really hope that you change your views if you are ever a head coach. Unless you have a perfected offense then once again like
BE stated you still would have no points.
 
I have a question? Where does/did BE coach? Was he the head coach?

I may come off as angry, however, I like these types of discussions where there really can be no winner and no loser. Both sides get to argue their point and call the opposition a fool for believeing what he/she believes. I realize my last post might have been offensive so I am choosing to state this.

However as BE pointed out the teams he coached were 2-8. Again I am not familiar with BE or his history so I only make points of opinion (mine) with the information I am given w/in this message board.

So, Tweeter, if you would care to enlighten me on how you are so sure BE's tactics are so tried and true I would be very interested to hear about it. I do know that his son was as many see it THE Specimen of sixman football for all others to be judged by and compared to. However, I dont think that a father can take much credit for what a son does... or vice versa. Again if he is a long time head coach with tried and true system I would be remiss if I did not ask for more information.

Last, as for the whole offense defense debate that BE and myself have been having it simply cannot be one. We are simply, in my eyes, each standing on our own soap box ademantly cheering for our own cause. He brings in stats and figures to support his claim and I for mine. If you would like to argue that great defense leads to fewer points and finals scores of 0 to 0. I would offer this nugget of information. A team that scores many points will win often, A team that never allows a score can never be beaten.... :lol:
 
I do not know BE either, but i am assuming that he was one of the coaches for RS when they made their runs back in the mid 2000's. I am actually still in college and am planning on coaching. Don't know how old you are or if you even coach. I am hoping that you are not a coach and that you too are rather young. You still are only reading what you want to. If you go back up to my post you shall see that i am not all about offense. As a head coach your responsibility is to score more points than the other team. In the end a win is a win.

I think a great example for this would happen to be Texas Tech's football team in the last 10 years. About 10 years ago they had one of the best defenses, but no matter what they had an undeveloped offense. They did decent, but they just couldn't score the points needed. Now if you take their season last year you can see that they had on of the best NCAA offenses of all time. Most passing yards, still a decent amount of rushing yards, but they had no defense compared to the No. 1 they had a few years back. Now i don't think it matters which team made it farther that year, but if they had both teams offense and defense together they would no doubt have had a national championship. Coach Leach is an "offensive genius", words of an aggie. Now ruffin mcneal is a really good defensive coach and both of these guys worked together. Now you are saying that a team should ditch the offense. Texas Tech has taken care of that already, now lets see how they do this next year.

Sixman is a lot different than 11 man because you have players that play on both sides of the ball. I do believe that you should perfect plays on offense as well as work on defensive schemes everyday. Passing routes should be done everyday as well as conditioning.

If you want to keep argueing because you like to see how hot you can get the boards, then just keep on. I really should try to be a lawyer since i like to argue so much, but i would rather coach.

Your post didn't come off as angry, just immature.

Defense doesn't win anything without an offense.
 
BE said:
Week ten? If you'll sit down and do an honest, objective assessment of the benefits you gained with the amount of time spent, I will guarantee you could have found another more important area to improve that would have made your players more skilled and prepared and your team much better. And the improvements would have arrived sooner than week ten.

Once again , I couldn't disagree with you more. Starting next year , our tackling will begin much much improved because of last year.I will not concede to this being an offensive first game and put defense on the backburner.I have coached 11 man for 6 years and 6 man for one year.In my opinion tackling is the most important aspect of 6 man football.Some things we stressed were aiming at the"near number" ,in other words take away the cutback. Also,diving and lunging are terrible. But probably the biggest problem we had was falling to their knees upon contact. Make them stay on their feet at contact to have their legs to tackle with.Keep your weight over your feet and even give ground in certain one on one situations. Our wrap-up point is usually butt cheeks and lift up with legs.The obvious reply is BE is much more experienced in 6 man , so listen to him.This may be right.But I can tell you this -tackle alot.Tackling the wrong way will make you worse , though.(take the cutback away)
 
Sixpack34, I am not disagreeing with the premise that defense is a vital part of six-man. The fact that only six men are responsible for so much terrain compared to eleven-man demands a good defense be strived for. Nonetheless, if your primary focus is defense at the expense of offensive skill development, you are shortchanging yourself and your team.

Let me use a hypothetical. Let's say you and someone like a Clawson, a Campbell, a Lee or a Reed both have a team of clones. You and your opposing coach, one of the names mentioned, both have the same identical team, say the 2007 RS squad with Tyler, Mark, Shelby, on down the roster the same kids on both teams. You work on all the important phases of the game with an emphasis on defense and tackling, but not just that alone. The other coach who has the exact same players likewise develops his team and works on the same phases of the game, but does so in his own unique ways.
When you and that team play each other your team will lose most of those contests because of the overemphasis of tackling and defense, and lack of offensive development. Believe me, as good as Tyler and the rest of his teammates were on defense, they would not be able to stop a team of themselves with an emphasis on offense. Why? because a defense has to rely too much on reacting to the play of the offense. Like chess where white gets the first move, the offense also gets the first move. Anything you do defensively can be countered and exploited before the snap of the ball. You will have to have a good offense in order to force my players to play hard on both sides of the ball, that is your best chance.

In 2004 we won the state championship primarily because of our defense. The same is true with Throckmorton in 2005. But, in 2006 and 2007 we won due to our offense, not our defense. We had to outscore Rule to win because both offenses were too strong to stop consistently. In games like that good defense is demanded, however without a great offense we lose both years to Rule. Remember that they scored 58 and 54 points against our defense. And I promise it wasn't for lack of defensive devotion, or lack of tackling skill. When our guys hit you you usually went down, same with Rule's kids. But defense can and is developed without the same rigorous drilling our coaches made us do back in the day. But we couldn't score four times a game. If you put eight in the box against my high school offense to stop the wishbone...we were done. The only time we passed is on third and five or more, or against really weak teams like Kennedale, Ft. Worth Nolan or Joshua and we could afford an interception. Our minds were wrong back then. Our offense was underdeveloped despite having some dandy skill talent, but it was never utilized. And I guarantee we worked at least an hour a day on defensive drills and team defense, sometimes an hour and a half. And defense came first every stinking day, so we were half spent by the time our offensive segment began. But we could slobberknock each other and that 110 pound dummy.

I believe in defense, brother. If we hadn't have been good defensively, Rule would have scored a hundred on us; Throckmorton, Blum, Trinidad, Aspermont, Strawn and Calvert would have too.

If your kids can play defense they can play quality offense, too.
 
I totally agree BE. Defense needs to be worked on but it is always one step behind. We watched a lot of tapes on our opponents and tried to come up with a defensive scheme to face what they played IN THE PAST. However, there is no guarantee the team will run the same stuff. So it is foolish to spend too much time working on something that may be obsolete in the actual game. But with offense, you can control the field. It is important to also watch your own tendencies because the opponents will play to those.
 
BE, I think I have finally come to an agreement with you. At the beginning of this thread fofish asked about tackling strategies for an upstart program of sorts. We all suggested what we thought best. All people are influence by things they have done, both successful and failed. Your position is from one of a very high flying offesnse flying almost by the seat or their pants to score points. Your experience in this was very succesful and thats what you beleive.
My stance, was that if a new program does not focus at least somewhat on tackling and defensive strategy they would be unable to win many games. In my experience, for the most part I have been able to score points. All the while we were unable to stop the other team from scoring. In one game we had to score 98 points to beat a lesser opponent because we simply couldnt stop them for 2 1/2 quarters. That is where my position comes from. I agree offense is important, however defense is equally if not more important for new, undisciplined, programs with little or no tradition.

So after having said all that it seems like I agree almost 100% with what you said!!
 
Hey brother, I don't have all the answers about anything. I just don't mind speaking my opinion based on...like you said my own experiences. I know now that I had a lot of coaches in high school, college and who I worked under that for some self-inflicted reason didn't try to teach me the best strategies and tactics available even back then. And I'm not just talking football. I finally looked back one night and realized that the teams who were beating us were doing and using things that involved more skills and better teaching. Of course I did not realize this back then;I suspected that there was something better and for nobodies fault but my own I never took the time or energy to investigate until around 2000.

Let me just say one more thing. One Friday night I drove over and scouted a district rival we would play the week after our off week. I got there early and drove right up to the fence on one of the 20 yard lines, a nice spot where I had a high view from inside my pickup. The opponent of the team I was scouting rested during halftime maybe twenty yards from me, and I could hear almost every word the coach was saying due to his rather strong, booming voice, plus he was extremly upset at being thirty points behind. As the team sat down to listen to their coach's instructions I was eager to hear his words. It was obvious to me and several fans standing along the fence what adjustments needed to be made in order to be more competitive in the second half. They couldn't beat their opponent, but just a couple of changes was necessary for them to make a fight of it. To me they had the best single athlete on the field that night, but weren't using his talents much.

The coaches words totally shocked me. The shock was compounded because this guy was considered an up-and-comer of the first degree.
For seven or eight minutes he shouted and prodded his boys to "get out there and get pissed off," and "if you want to step up to the next level you got a get mad as _ _LL and hit somebody!" No joke, his halftime adjustment was for his players to "get fired up and mad and hit somebody!" He must have said those three phrases ten or fifteen times. That's it!!! No practical adjustments, no quick analysis, no discussion of why a certain player wasn't getting the job done....nothing but yelling and prodding.

Immediately I was thrown back to those long ago years when it was me sitting there wanting to know what needed to be done, and all I ever heard were the same type of instructions. We always responded to those words and returned to the field fired up and looking to hit someone, but I don't remember very many successful comebacks, actually none at all. All it turned out to be was a repeat of the first half.

Of course most of us know better now. We know adjustments and changes need to be made at the minimum during halftime. Eventually a coach who can make changes at half will learn how to do it on the fly, during the game, from one play to the next or one possession to the next.
And the result will be a better chance of winning and a much greater sense of accomplishment and personal fulfillment. And then you will learn to teach your players how to do the same things during the week and on game night. That will be the moment when you are doing your best job of coaching possible. And that can't be done without a lot of teaching during the week, as well as some player film study over the weekend. But if one never advances his coaching approach, he has no beneficial advice for his team at halftime, nor during the week for that matter.

Again, I have no birthright to superior coaching technique or philosophy. You are just as talented as I am, no doubt. All that I do and did is based a great degree on piracy born from the realization that there might be something better I need to discover, that I don't have all the best techniques and strategies, but I will be openminded and energetic enough to investigate other ideas. That is why I sought out the Mitch Lees, the Nelson Campbells and the Doyle Clawsons. While I was at Hermleigh I had my wife film our Highland and BC games so I could study their styles. I think the best approach is one that my son always expressed. He often looked at me and said "Dad, I know there is something better out there that we need to use, but I just haven't found it yet." He is right as rain.
 
Sounds like some coaches I've seen. I had the great fortune to be involved with some very good coaches and know some that are very good. However, I have been in and around programs where the coaches were very much as you described. I always want my players focused and enthusiastic, but not mad. Anger clouds the mind, or so I hear. :lol: It is a shame that their are so many kids out there whose talents are underutillized, or underappreciated. I have given one of those speeches. It made improvements for intensity, but not focus and execution. Like I said before we all speak from experiences of our own. You had great defensive skills with your program, so you focused on improving offensive skill and route running. My biggest concern was not scoring, but keeping the other team from scoring every possession. I do know this to be a fact. Your skills are never more tested than to motivate kids to do it right instead of their own way. I would have to say that is the biggest test, of new coaches especially, that and remaining calm when everyone else is absolutely losing their mind.
 
Now we're getting to a sister subject.
How exactly do different coaches get their players to do it right instead of their (the players) way?
If enough choose not to can you still field a team?
What if the school boards kids are on the team?

Doesn't matter what kind of target/tackling/passing/offence/option/formation strategy we use if the players say no.
 
It would stand to reason that if your players say no, to what their coach is telling them to do its an emergency that is a bigger issue outside of football. Even today in an age when teachers/coaches/parents have trouble with discipline, I dont think kids will flat out tell you NO... if they do, you dont HAVE to let them play. At that point you have to take a stand, if you let 'em play you have shown a weakness and you will likely never get them back under your control. The same applies to teaching/coaching/parenting and to some other arenas I probably have not thought of at this time.

I think everyone here could agree though if you connect with the kids show them you are there for them and not just drawing a paycheck it will go along way to developing trust. Trust is the key in coaching. If they trust you and you explain your system and the signifigance/reasoning for what you doing they will buy in. Give 'em a goal, give 'em a chance, they will get it done if they can believe in the program/system/team/coach, in that order.
 
Fofish, I know what your going through and I've heard other coaches say the same thing over the years about that school. The problem runs deeper than just the kids, sounds like some of the parents are still the source of much of the lack of discipline and respect.

Get your contract renewed and then start searching for a better place. If you want to know about a prospect school talk to the previous coach and coaches within their district. Nothing unethical about that whatsoever.
It's a bad sign when a school has three or four head coaches in the last four or five years.
 
Fofish, you hit the nail on the head. Any system can/will work IF you get the kids to buy in. Convince them that what you are doing is right for them and for the team and they will fight for you. If you don't failure is eminent. I don't think there is a formula or method that will do this for all kids, but it definitely must be done or you are doomed. Winning also helps too :lol:
 
Something to think about. It has been said defense can only react.....I agree with this. In 1983 we were going to play Newcastle and it looked like the winner would end up district champions. Coach Campbell had great scouting reports. We praticed on defense all week and could stop their offense no problem, we had it down to a science. Game starts, they are on offense. First play, we stop them with a 12 yard loss. Second play, we stop them with a 5 yard loss. Third play, they switch offensive formations and go with one we had not praticed on. They ran all over us as we were reacting the rest of the game. Final score?
Newcastle 28
Gordon 22
We made two touchdowns with a minute left that were called back. Yes, I had offensive pass interference on the first one but I did not hit the guy in the back on the second one, got him in the chest and we had it on video. I have always been told you will remember the losses more then the wins. LOL

As to having talent? Coach Campbell was a great coach, I am proud to have played under him. Look at his records though. In the 90s:
1990's Record: 109 wins - 16 losses - 1 tie
District Record in the 1990's -- 45-3
District Championships in the 1990's -- 8
1990's Playoff Record -- 18-8
Semi-Final Round Record -- 2-1 (1981,1996,1999)
Final Round Record -- 2-0 (1996,1999)

Are you going to tell me Gordon had great talent all 10 of those years? I tend to believe that Coach Campbell was capable of taking average boys and turning them into GREAT players. Yes, there was the tradition that did not hurt at all.

Coach Nelson Campbell
Head Coach of the Longhorns from 1981-2004
Record as head coach 247-61-2
High School:
All District Offense 1965-67
All District Defense 1967
Team Won Regional 1967
All Star Representative 1968
Received 4-Year Scholarship to T.C.U in Football 1968-72
Coaching:
Served as Head Coach and Principal of Strawn High School 1977-1981 Record while at Strawn was 34-8 Went to State Semi-Finalist 1979
Served as Head Coach and Principal of Gordon High School 1981-2004 Record while at Gordon was 213-53-2
19 Times in the Playoffs
14 District Championships
4 Times to the State Semi-Finals
2 State Championships
Retired with the most coaching victories in the history of six-man football and is currently second on that list.

And look what happened after he retired......several years with a very few wins. I think talent really helps but a lot of it boils down to the coach. I can not recall one instance when Coach Campbell even raised his voice. When he spoke you made sure you listened......because you would be punished if you did not? No, because of the respect you had for him.

Andy
 
If you pay attention over the years it becomes apparent that some defenses react more than others, and most coaches allow their defenses to rely on flex too much. If you want to have some influence on offenses you have to attack rather than just play prevent all night.


In 2004 Cherokee's Coach Miller, Santa Anna(cannot recall the coach), V. Jones at Aspermont, Strawn's Lee and Coach Tyler at Valley had the best attack defenses we played against all year. But the absolute best defenses belonged to Aspermont and Throckmorton. All these defenses had something in common and it was pressure, by the time Tyler received the pitch or snap the rush was upon him a second later. And it wasn't an overpursue rush, rather a very good breakdown rush. Now, executed alone without proper pass coverage this concept is easily refuted because of the threat of an easy dump pass or flood. Jones and Davis neutralized the short patterns by backpedaling his corners until a certain moment when they read that Tyler was about to dump the ball off, then they sprinted up to cover the flats and curl areas. The result was a very minimal gain and often none at all. In both those games we scored a total of one td with the dump. In most games we had no trouble relying on the dump both as a called play and a "hot" play. In essence the defense was dictating what we could do in the spread.

There were things we could do to counter this defensive plan, but against Aspermont I was too stubborn to change the spread variation because I wanted to save it for a later round. Everytime I made the decision to use a different variation in the second half, I would change my mind based on the way our defense played that possession. We gave up no scores in that second half which allowed me to stick with the original game plan-A. In the Throckmorton game Tyler made several bad decisions and threw three picks, plus Throck's athletes were really outstanding. They were as quick or quicker than Calvert's.

Back to the point---these defenses attacked all night and helped their efforts quite a bit.

In 2002 Sanderson had a superb 3-1-2 attack defense which destroyed Calvert in the first half. Their Ends especially, as well as their Noseguard and MLB(Paul Greene) totally controled Calvert's offense whose pass game didn't play well that first half, because of the Ends pressure. And when Calvert tryed to execute their stellar sweep the playside corner/safety(terminology?) exploded up like a cheetah to make the play along with the MLB. It was the best 3-1-2 I have ever seen before and since. I'm not sure who the DC was for them at that time, perhaps Dale Means, seems like maybe he spoke on the 3-1-2 at Lubbock one summer.
 
Ok, I have been gone for a while but just got done reading this whole thread. And took me forever, anyway as a 6-man running back I loved for people to go low on me because a good stiff arm would put thier fase mask in the dirt. But I think that I had a different way of going about being a running back. I always loved to hit people while I was running the ball. If you put a good pop on defenders the first couple of times you run the ball then they break down the next time thinking that you are going to run in to them which I didn't then I ran around them when they were sitting there flat footed.
I only played defense when I got to PC and that was some in my Junior year, and started my Senior year. Comming from Gordon we had enough people that I only played offense. So I was behind the curb to say the least. When I did get to PC Coach Lee always taught us head up and in the numbers, drive through the ball carrier. Seemed to work as we went pretty far in the Playoffs my senior year in 99' and then they won state the next year. So I guess it is up to the coach and how they want to teach people.
 
Yes Andy I am saying that Gordon had talent all 10 of those years. Can a coach elevate players? Of course. But no matter how good a coach you have on the sidelines, he has to have talented players to get to the next level. So the question is what separates the very good coaches from the championship coaches? The ability to sniff out talent at a school and get a job there. (Or in some coaches cases, move talent into a trailer next to the school.)
 
or....in a van DOWN BY THE RIVER!

Don't be rediculous,
moving in one player won't guarantee anything.
The whole recruiting/bringing in players is the stuff losers limp is made of.
 
Back
Top