Playoffs

[nca06]

What the format if there is a tie in the district? Is it based on head to head, points, ect..?

 

[pastormiles]

Better call Don Markum or Leroy Willis and get them to decide before Monday night's meeting.

 

[LeRoy Willis]

The first tie breaker is head to head compition in regular season. If there is a three way tie there will be a coin toss with odd man out and coin toss for second and third.

 

[freeagent]

The first tie breaker is head to head compition in regular season. If there is a three way tie there will be a coin toss with odd man out and coin toss for second and third.

Boy, I'd hate to have my season decided on what somebody calls heads or tails ...

A good tiebreaker for a three way tie is point differential between the teams tied. Most districts (in 6 or crowded field football) have a point limitation, for example 21 points maximum, which limits the temptation to run up the score.

For example, a couple years ago, Lifegate, San Antonio Town East and Fredericksburg Heritage all tied at 3-1 in their district and had split the games among them 1-1 each. We had a 21 point maximum rule.

Lifegate had beaten Town East 60-21 (39 points; but Lifegate only got 21 under the rule)
Heritage had beaten Lifegate 30-16 (14 point for Heritgate)
Town East beat Heritage 38-34, I think (4 points for Town East). I sure wasn't happy when Heritage scored that last touchdown in the fourth quarter ... and you'll see why ...

So, when we determined playoff seeding it was something like this ...

Heritage: +14 -4 = 10, 1st seed
Lifegate +21 -14 = 7, 2nd seed
Town East -21 +4 = -17, 3rd seed

But the key was this was determined BEFORE the season started in the district rules. Maybe most years, it doesn't mean anything. But there will be that year when it does.

And occasionally, some of us fuddy-duddy old school TAPPS types realize that can happen (TAPPS does recommend to all its districts to determine tiebreaker scenarios in district organizing meetings ...).

 

[CoachSobey]

I agree, John. The plus/minus point differential seems a much better way to determine seeding among three teams tied for a play-off position. Capping the point/victory margin also helps, as you said.

However, I have read several times on this board that UIL districts use the coin toss. So it is somewhat popular among more than just a few coaches. I am an advocate for a standardized format that all districts follow. A coin toss seems like gambling to me (playing the odds). Many of our Christian schools are affiliated with churches that decry gambling.

I am surprised that TCAF has adopted this method.

 

[freeagent]

I agree, John. The plus/minus point differential seems a much better way to determine seeding among three teams tied for a play-off position. Capping the point/victory margin also helps, as you said.

However, I have read several times on this board that UIL districts use the coin toss. So it is somewhat popular among more than just a few coaches. I am an advocate for a standardized format that all districts follow. A coin toss seems like gambling to me (playing the odds). Many of our Christian schools are affiliated with churches that decry gambling.

I am surprised that TCAF has adopted this method.

Huh? We agree on something. This just can't be ...

I gotta think this through. Maybe TCAF can have the teams tied cut a deck of cards instead. Do it right, get some dealer from a Vegas casino to officiate.

The one "tie breaker" that always got me was the old UIL rule that broke ties in playoff games ... Penetrations inside the 20. One of the bad things about the "good old days."

 

[EZduzit]

The first tie breaker is head to head compition in regular season. If there is a three way tie there will be a coin toss with odd man out and coin toss for second and third.

Once the three way tie has been broken with a coin toss, why not then use the head-to-head to determine 2nd and 3rd?

 

[EZduzit]

If my research is right, Christian Life, undefeated so far, is 5-0 in district with one game to play vs. Nazarene. Lucas is 4-1 in district with one to play against Trinity. Trinity is 3-2 in district with one to play against Lucas. Hill is 3-2 in district with one to play vs. Temple. Temple, at 0-5 and Nazarene at 2-3, are out of contention, but can still be difference makers.

If Christian Life beats Nazarene, they will finish district 6-0 and be the district winners with a bye.

If Lucas beats Trinity, they will be 5-1, and will be in the playoffs as the #2 team.

If Hill beats Temple, they will finish 4-2 and be the #3 team.

If Trinity upsets Lucas and Hill beats Temple, all three teams will finish district with 4-2 records in district with Hill having the tie breaker (head-to-head) over Trinity, Trinity having the tie breacker over Lucas, and Lucas having the tie-breaker over Hill.

A coin toss would eliminate one team (odd man out), and the other two teams should be able to go by head-to-head, at that point.

Of course, if Nazarene upsets Christian Life and Lucas beats Trinity, both would be 5-1, but since CL beat Lucas, they would still be district winners.

What a great season to come down to the end like this. Congrats to all of the teams.

 

[coachgilbert]

Dallas Academy is not in the TCAF Division I districts. They began the season with their girls sports in TAPPS and boys in TCAF. That isn't allowed by either league. The Dallas Academy games were non-district games according to TCAF. The rest of your 'research' is correct.

It has not been decided, at least as far as I know, whether they will join the league with the new teams coming in next season or not.

 

[EZduzit]

Any chance that neutral sites will be used for playoff games between the District 1 & 2 teams? Somewhere mutually inconvenient like, say, San Antonio or Lubbock?

 

[coachgilbert]

First round game is at the 2nd place teams home field. 3rd place team from the other district would travel to there. Semi-finals and finals are at a neutral site.

 

[CoachSobey]

Coach Gilbert,
Did TCAF change the play-off structure? Last year the 3rd place played @ the 2nd place in the first round. Then the winners played the 1st place @ the 1st place home. Only the finals were in Ft. Worth. Will the 2nd Round and the finals actually be at a "neutral site," with each team traveling a similar distance to play?

Seems that the #2 tteams get a better break under this system. They get to host. The #1's do not get to host.

Just wonderin' ...

Coach Sobey

 

[coachgilbert]

Coach Sobey,

Yes, the playoff structure was redone after last season. This season 2nd from one plays 3rd from the other at 2nd's home field in first round with officials being set up by the league. 1st place from both gets 1st round bye. That is the only playoff game where a 'home field' is used. Semi's are at a neutral location and I'm not sure if the championship location has changed or if they will still use the field here in Aledo for that.

 

[CoachSobey]

OK. Thanks for the clarification. Since I am no longer coaching a varsity progtram, I was not at the June '08 meeting.

I know that I probably have a "chip on my shoulder" about travel, but it seems that TCAF has found a way to exclude travel to El Paso, much the same as TAPPS. I do realize that the #3 from the Metro aera will have to travel to EP - just like the #3 from EP will travel to the Metro area (as Immanuel did last year when I brought them to Aledo to play Coach Gilbert's team).

If I earned the #1 spot in my District, I should get to host my first play-off game. Playing at a neutral site should be the decision of the higher seeded team. And, if the finals are still in Aledo, it could end up that TWO western district teams have to travel way out of their way ... --- AGAIN. (Last year's championship was Midland Trinity v. EP Faith Christian, and the game was played in Aledo.) That's 300 miles for Midland and 600 miles for Faith - one way.

Working out the kinks in a newer state organization is never easy. TCAF is doing an OUTSTANDING job finding ways to be fair. I hope this continues. (For instance, I beleive that the TCAF State Tack Meet will be in El Paso this year.)

Coach Sobey

 

[freeagent]

Coach Sobey,

Yes, the playoff structure was redone after last season. This season 2nd from one plays 3rd from the other at 2nd's home field in first round with officials being set up by the league. 1st place from both gets 1st round bye. That is the only playoff game where a 'home field' is used. Semi's are at a neutral location and I'm not sure if the championship location has changed or if they will still use the field here in Aledo for that.

TAPPS used to have the theory that a first round bye was as good as a home game and used to require that second round and beyond games were played at a neutral site (unless there was a mutual agreement to play the game at one team's home field). However, I notice that now, at least in the lower classifications, they allow the higher ranked team to host the game (games between teams of the same district standing, for example two 1st or two 2nd place teams are at neutral sites). I like the latter idea, especially when byes are involved. That way, the first place team (with a bye) can contact BOTH of the teams in the previous game (IN ADVANCE) and set up proposed dates, times and other arrangements BEFORE the second round playoff game; for example if Team A wins, we may agree to play Friday at 7:30; but Team B may agree to play on Saturday at 2:00). There's no scrambling for neutral sites on the weekend, chasing after officials, so when the first round game is over, everybody knows where you're going to play the next week.

Part of the reason behind this is that, frankly, neutral site games are excuses for BOTH teams to lose money. Give you an example -- in basketball, a couple years back. We're to play a team from the Houston area. So, we agree to play over at Halletsville Sacred Heart. Rent the gym for $200 and the refs are maybe $100. TAPPS says the gate for playoff games is $5 a head; and I'm running the gate (I can be a bit of a gate Nazi when it comes to paying to get in the joint). So, we have a cost of the game of $300. We bring about 20 or so paying fans to the game ... $100 gate. The opponent ... brought ONE. And I'm not sure he paid. So, each of us pay out $100 for the loss on the game. I'd have almost agreed to give the visiting team $100 for gas and play at our place. We'd have had more fans, a few bucks in concessions income and maybe broke even. And our friends at Halletsville Sacred Heart are on the cheap end of the scale ... I've had schools (public and private; and we're not talking the big ones) on the IH-10 corridor between Houston and San Antonio quote prices as high as $500 for gym rental. Lord knows what they think their football field is worth.

In fact, once I had a night where Team A (a good friend of mine; please keep him in your prayers because he's pretty ill at this time) had to rent our gym for a playoff basketball game. Our rent was $100 (actually $75, but we require that you pay somebody from our school another $25 to be there, lock and unlock the doors, and turn on the lights and be sure that the place is at least no messier than it was when you showed up, and I made $25 that night). A few nights later, our Team played another school at Team A's gym in a playoff game. They charged us $175, I think. My friend was really apologizing, but his administrator was adamant that's what he was to charge, even though a few days before, we charged him less. I told him, even though I love you brother, next time our gym rental will be whatever his gym rental fee would be.

Want a funny story about neutral sites? Edd Burleson told me this one about his days of coaching at Mart. His team makes the playoffs and the opposing team refuses to consider a neutral site and wants to flip for home field (figuring, of course, it's 50-50 that it will be at his field). Edd informs the opponent that, for that night, Mart's home field will be Ysleta High School in El Paso (several hundred miles away from both schools). Coach decides that a neutral site might be a better alternative.

 

[freeagent]

I know that I probably have a "chip on my shoulder" about travel, but it seems that TCAF has found a way to exclude travel to El Paso, much the same as TAPPS. I do realize that the #3 from the Metro aera will have to travel to EP - just like the #3 from EP will travel to the Metro area (as Immanuel did last year when I brought them to Aledo to play Coach Gilbert's team).

Coach Sobey

Ooooh .... I like it ... trouble in paradise (aka TCAF).

Just kidding, my brothers ... I just couldn't resist it. You know, my sinful (pro-TAPPS) nature.

 

[#22-In Lucas]

I know that I probably have a "chip on my shoulder" about travel, but it seems that TCAF has found a way to exclude travel to El Paso, much the same as TAPPS. I do realize that the #3 from the Metro aera will have to travel to EP - just like the #3 from EP will travel to the Metro area (as Immanuel did last year when I brought them to Aledo to play Coach Gilbert's team).

Coach Sobey

Ooooh .... I like it ... trouble in paradise (aka TCAF).

Just kidding, my brothers ... I just couldn't resist it. You know, my sinful (pro-TAPPS) nature.

:lol: whats wrong with TCAF?

 

[#22-In Lucas]

If my research is right, Christian Life, undefeated so far, is 5-0 in district with one game to play vs. Nazarene. Lucas is 4-1 in district with one to play against Trinity. Trinity is 3-2 in district with one to play against Lucas. Hill is 3-2 in district with one to play vs. Temple. Temple, at 0-5 and Nazarene at 2-3, are out of contention, but can still be difference makers.
Congrats to all of the teams.

sounds like youve been doin alot of thinkin EZ. you're startin to sound like my coach every practice haha... and i quote "alright boys here's how its gonna go... we can either beat trinity and get 2nd place or lose to trinity and go to El paso... do yall wanna go to el paso?" "NOOOO" "thats what i thought" "or christian life can lose to nazarene and we'll tie for 1st but it wont make no difference since they beat us"

haha aight theres one thing im definetly not sure of... if Lucas wins against trinity we get 2nd so according to the new playoff format where will our first playoff game be?

i think my coach said we would have to go to midland but i also heard that we would Host the first playoff game???? anybody know??

 

[CoachSobey]

Lucas 22, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with TCAF. They are a young organization, experiencing excellent growth by serving a share of the market that other organizations do not. By servicing their constituents well, TCAF is growing to include more and more schools from competitive organizations, like TAPPS. 8)

I am sure you have missed most of the dialogue (or diatribe ... -- sometimes it is hard to tell :mrgreen: ) between Lifegate and myself. He is a staunch TAPPS supporter whose message of unity among Christian schools is a strong argument for having just one, statewide sports organization. Unfortunately and because of the real world diversity among our Christian schools, there does not yet exist a single organization that CAN cater to all the needs of all the different schools.

Since I am from El Paso (which does not exist on the Texas maps found in Houston and surrounding areas), I have an overwhelming bias (it gets me in trouble ... -- as if I needed more things to get me in trouble :lol: ), about schools NOT wanting to travel to El Paso. :evil: My comment about TCAF was made from that bias.

I am guessing that you are a current student at Lucas or a recent alumnus. Either way, you have an outstanding school with excellence at its heart. Thanks for the question and the opportunity given me to correct ANY misconception that might be drawn from Lifegate's and my exchanges, witty reparte', and - most often - "jus' funnin" jousting. :wink:

 

[CoachSobey]

If Lucas finishes #2 in their district, they will host the 3rd place team from the Western District.

If Granger's picks are correct, and they usually are by this time in the sesaon, Lucas - if 2nd - would play the loser of the EP Faith v. EP Immanuel game scheduled for Friday night. If Lucas is 3rd, they would travel to El Paso to play the winner of the same game. If all goes according to Granger, Midland Trinity will win the Western District and draw a first round bye.