defenseless player

[Coach Rabon jr]

What is considered a defenseless player and when does the whistle get blown? asking because we had a scrimmage this past week where we had a kid get a concussion on, what i thought was a bad hit on a defenseless player. We had our RB get wrapped up at the legs and couldn't move while another kid came in and hit him in the head. Ref said it wasn't a flag because he wasn't defenseless. He was held up for a good 2-3 seconds.

 

[C. LaTransviejo]

In other words, if he can see it coming he isn’t defenseless. He can react. Defenseless would be a blindside or crack back block, or receiver with eyes on the ball and stretching out to attempt the reception.
It sounds like, in this situation, that the runner may have not been stopped or the official would have blown it dead. Then the penalty would have been for a late hit.

 

[6 Man Rocks]

Page FR-98 of NCAA Rule Book has the following under Rule 9.4:
Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player isdefenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:
And then . . .
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.

I think the key here is determining if forward progress has been stopped

 

[coachsatcher]

Page FR-98 of NCAA Rule Book has the following under Rule 9.4:
Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player isdefenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:
And then . . .
• A ball carrier already in the grasp of an opponent and whose forward progress has been stopped.

I think the key here is determining if forward progress has been stopped

It is also such a subjective call for the official. If he blows the whistle too early, and the player breaks loose after the whistle, everyone is mad that he wasn't given a chance to fight for more yardage. I was the worst on questioning officials, but I would like to believe I supported putting safety first.

 

[ZeroRisk]

6 Man Rocks quoted the black letter rule that applies. In practice, it's sometimes difficult to draw the line between when a player is still fighting for yardage and when they have been wrapped up. From your original post, it sounds like you are strong on the situation being one where the ball carrier was definitely stopped and therefore defenseless. When in doubt, officials are going to err on the side of being slow on the whistle and letting the kid continue to fight for yards. Doesn't mean they were right or wrong in this case and you are a far better judge being the one to see it with your own eyes, definitely not going to cast judgment either way!

If he was defenseless as stated, and an opponent made forcible contact to his head/neck area with an indicator, you would have a foul for 9-1-4 Targeting. If he was completely held up and play was over, you could have a Personal Foul for Late Hit or Unnecessary Roughness as well, even without a head/neck hit.

I hate to say "depends," but...well...it depends.

Above anything and everything, I hope the player recovers fully and quickly.

 

[6 Man Rocks]

4 or 5 years ago; I was slow with the whistle, allowing the ball carrier to fight for yardage even though there was a defender on his back.
The resulting gruesome broken leg injury I witnessed sure made me wish I had blown the play dead early.

 

[ZeroRisk]

Sadly, it's a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation a lot of the time and it comes down to just making a judgment call. I'm always going to err on the side of player safety, but you also want to reward the hard fight from players who just don't give up. Any game where everyone walks off the field without an injury is a good game, regardless of the score.

 

[dammitbobby]

What is considered a defenseless player and when does the whistle get blown? asking because we had a scrimmage this past week where we had a kid get a concussion on, what i thought was a bad hit on a defenseless player. We had our RB get wrapped up at the legs and couldn't move while another kid came in and hit him in the head. Ref said it wasn't a flag because he wasn't defenseless. He was held up for a good 2-3 seconds.

Couple thoughts here. First, in a scrimmage, it is exceptionally difficult for officials to determine when to kill a play - but the coaches all have whistles too and if they feel a player is in danger, they can - and should- blow it dead. This is especially true for passers, it's a choice between letting the player run and juke and move or kill it... when we kill it, the players and coaches get frustrated, but 99/100 times they tell us to do it. It's a lot different in a real game, where officials have sole control over determining when progress has been stopped, and we won't kill it to save a QB who is running - he's on his own, obviously.

As for the rule - as noted, yes there is a lot of subjectivity around this. And for runners LaTransviejo is correct - if he can see them coming, he is not considered defenseless. But - even if is he is not facing forward, if he is attempting to still make progress, he is not considered defenseless (think a runner who has been turned around, and is using his back to try to push the pile forward.) In other words, it has to be an almost unusual situation for a runner to be deemed defenseless. I know some coach defenses to stand the player up, and then here comes everyone else to turn him into a tackling dummy; it's up to the runner to get to the ground to avoid that (which, incidentally, is a specific condition in which the runner is immediately considered defenseless.)

(I specified for runners specifically above - it is very different for receivers and passers who have a much broader range of activities (for lack of a better word) that can be make them defenseless - going up to catch a pass, in the act of or immediately after throwing a pass, fielding a kick, etc.)