What do you hate to defend (and how to stop it) ?

[Deacon]

Talking scheme here, not personnel. Assuming talent is equal, what do you least like to see schematically?

Mine is probably an under center, I formation B gap lead with a pull block on the D end by the backside guard.

V V V
--V--

--V--
--V--

Ex. Play goes to the right. Right guard and center down block to the left. Left guard pulls right and takes the DE.
Fullback leads to the hole and cleans up the linebacker. RB often cuts wide right and can go in untouched if blocked properly.

It can go to either side, so your defense has to play with balance. But it creates a numbers problem, as your backside help (DE, LB) often gets caught up in traffic leaving an offensive numbers advantage on the play side.

I'd imagine this isn't a surprise for many here since this is a staple for a lot of teams, but it's still a headache. Anybody see effective approaches to stopping this?

What do you not like to see coming at your defense?

 

[Reed]

Ok. I’m going to nibble but not bite.

What’s the depth of your fullback?

Is your FB waiting on backside end to block DE before he blocks LB or is your fullback leading through the playside ends down lock then end is going to kick DE? I’m assuming your envisioning a 3-2-1 lb inside defense?

Is your Qb open up pitching or reversing out?

Is. Our tailback shuffle stepping or turning and running?

I have few more Qs depending on the answers.

I’m curious.

 

[Deacon]

Thanks for the reply: Based on your questions I'd like to clarify: this isn't our offensive set, but it is one that's popular and gives us headaches. I'd like to know how you might set up to defend it.

What’s the depth of your fullback?

About 5 yards off the ball.

Is your FB waiting on backside end to block DE before he blocks LB or is your fullback leading through the playside ends down lock then end is going to kick DE?

Kickout block on DE by pulling guard hits before FB leads through the hole.

I’m assuming your envisioning a 3-2-1 lb inside defense?"

I've seen the play run on various defenses, most often a 4:2

Is your Qb open up pitching or reversing out?

It's a straight handoff playside.

Is. Our tailback shuffle stepping or turning and running?

TB is going downhill at the snap

I have few more Qs depending on the answers.

Ask away. The 3:2:1 hasn't worked the best because the safety is too far back. By the time he gets involved, the TB has a full head of steam and a nice gain.

I wanted to start the topic because of something I read about Urban Meyer. Supposedly he always asks D coordinators what the least like to see, and supposedly the answer is usually "The option".

Interesting that the option isn't a big thing in six man football and that's something I'd like to ask about some other time.

 

[Coach Fudge]

In 11-man speed option is always a killer because of the numbers and reading the End or OLB. You can roll a safety to be the pitchman if you know it is coming like against single and double wing teams, but out of the spread it can be very tough to stop. But you have to be committed to it. Don’t dabble.

What you are talking about is just good old fashion Power. I prefer to run it with my FB kicking out the End and the Guard pulling for the LB. 4-2 has no chance if run correctly. Against a 3-2-1 or a 2-3-1 you have to pitch it and use your QB for the safety. Backside LB is untouched, but has to fight through a lot of trash to get there. Against the 4-2, the BS End can crash hard if he wants. But the closer he gets you have to have something to keep him honest: bootleg, throwback. Whatever your answer is... be ready. Don’t be afraid to use it early. The more it is on film, the less likely they are to just send him screaming.

The toughest defense to run this play against is the 3-3 stack.


X X X
X X X
O O O
O

O
O

Lots of questions: who do you block down on? Who do you pull for? Can’t boot because backside LB should be there for the misdirection stuff.

Easy answer is:
PSG/C - double the Nose to the Mike.
BSG - pull for PS backer
FB - kick out DE
QB - “chip” crashing DE

Or:

C - down on BS End (depends on how wide he is)
PSG - down on Nose
BSG - pull for Mike
FB - kick out DE
QB - pitch and find PS LB.

I believe the 2nd is tougher. Lots of variables. However working the combo’s takes time as well. But easier if you are facing a big time Nose.

Milford ran a 2-3-1 against it my last year in 6-man. But they had a safety that was fast enough to fill the gap on run and cover the pass. He was good.

Ran it with quite a bit of success in Chester a few years ago. Would do something’s different now.

Send me an email anytime. [email protected]

 

[Deacon]

but out of the spread it (edit: the option) can be very tough to stop. But you have to be committed to it. Don’t dabble.

Wait. Are you still talking 11 man or are you referring to a six man spread formation? To date I've seen teams try but it looks more like that dabble version you're referring to.

And thanks for the power defense tips. It may be old fashioned but what they sometimes say is true - nothing takes the wind out of a defense like getting run on and not having an answer.

 

[Roach]

In HS, we ran this play a bunch. We called it 26 power when you pulled the left end. We ran 80/20 run/pass out of a balanced I formation. Our strategy was a bit different. We reveresed out our QB as he pitched the ball to our RB. FB clears the edge, backside end Pulls and goes after next guy/next level, and QB is the last clear lead blocker. It worked great for us.

As a coach, any pressure type D can stop this. 5-1 is the hardest against to go against so it requires some adjustments. Worked against every other defense. 3-3 was second hardest to go against.

 

[Deleted member 21909]

Against any tight formation, you have to get pressure either by the guys up front winning or by run blitzing in an 11-man fashion. Most teams struggle throwing out of a tight; Strawn and Abilene Christian are the only two I've ever seen do it very well at all. While I think a D like the 5-1 might do well against the offense you described, I think the key is to get a lot of pressure on the offense while they exchange the ball. You could also "trap the trapper" like in 11-man and get a lineman in the pulling guard's pocket.

As far as the option, it's simply because the guy that takes the snap must exchange the ball before he can run. There are some ways to do it, out of a T, a gun T, regular spread, and a Jbird (the Jbird was actually an option originally.) Like the tight, the only advantage given to the defense in sixman is the exchange.

 

[BE]

If the Spread is played correctly, and it has an exceptional athlete at SB well versed in its tactics, there is no defense to stop it.
But I have seen that scenario just four times since 1996: '99 Gordon, 2001 Whitharral, 2004-2007 RS and 2010-2011 RS. Throckmorton did a good job against it in the 2005 semis winning 72-58.
Rule and Calvert did as good a job as can be done in 2007.

The only way to neutralize that kind of Spread offense is to play man with a matchup on the SB as good an athlete as him.

 

[Deacon]

Most teams struggle throwing out of a tight; Strawn and Abilene Christian are the only two I've ever seen do it very well at all.

We have some teams that play action effectively out of these sets. Most often it's a bootleg to one side or the other with two receivers in the pattern. One of the best ways we've found to defend it is to simply to deny primary receivers by jamming them at the line.

I have started to toy around with the setup a few teams are running where the the pitch man and the deep man both drop at the snap. Having three linemen to block traffic appears to do a better job of slowing the attack and buying that critical second to setup the pass.

Do you happen to know if any of the games you're talking about are in the archive here?

 

[jball52]

I'm pretty sure Blum was very effective with its passing game in the State Game.

 

[BE]

TebowTime' have you had a stroke?
Must of the passing we did in 2006 and 2007 was from the TBird (J hybrid). Rule and Throckmorton also used the same unbalanced set.