Onside kicks and high score games.

[Tigerfan85]

After the game Wednesday I ran into an old friend as I was leaving. This gentleman was a long time coach who’s won the big game before more than once. We talked a little about the May WB game. But he pointed out something that I have touched on before and that’s why so many onside kicks in the game nowadays? Also he related that to the number of high scoring games in today’s sixman world. Onside kick results in playing half the field. Less grass to travel more points will be scored. I would like to see stats that support the onside. I’ve seen many of these kicks returned so I’m not sure the ratio to the deep kick returns. That would be an interesting comparison. Maybe the coach and I are just old school but I’d like to see teams travel 60 to 70 yards for a score than I had 35-40.

 

[SimplyPut]

After the game Wednesday I ran into an old friend as I was leaving. This gentleman was a long time coach who’s won the big game before more than once. We talked a little about the May WB game. But he pointed out something that I have touched on before and that’s why so many onside kicks in the game nowadays? Also he related that to the number of high scoring games in today’s sixman world. Onside kick results in playing half the field. Less grass to travel more points will be scored. I would like to see stats that support the onside. I’ve seen many of these kicks returned so I’m not sure the ratio to the deep kick returns. That would be an interesting comparison. Maybe the coach and I are just old school but I’d like to see teams travel 60 to 70 yards for a score than I had 35-40.

You mean 4 or 5 plays to score instead of 1 or 2. Lol.....if a team is kicking deep its because a coach trust his defense is better than opponents or the opposing team has some serious return threats. Though MC lost, check out the average kick return yards by their players in the first half. Sorry can't remember name. But basically started at midfield anyway many times after some great returns. I do prefer the deep kick myself. Like you said old school.

 

[Tigerfan85]

Well that kinda ties into the next part of the equation. What happened to defense as a whole? Yes some teams play descent defense but as a whole it seems it’s more common to try to win the shootout. Yea I’m old school lol. I’d also like to see avg score of games broken down by decade. It would be really obvious as to how the strategy has changed through the years. Which is ok, I guess everything evolves. Lol. Hard getting old

 

[SlaughterHouse6]

Well that kinda ties into the next part of the equation. What happened to defense as a whole? Yes some teams play descent defense but as a whole it seems it’s more common to try to win the shootout. Yea I’m old school lol. I’d also like to see avg score of games broken down by decade. It would be really obvious as to how the strategy has changed through the years. Which is ok, I guess everything evolves. Lol. Hard getting old

Every rule change that has been invoked has been at the expense of the defense. This is what "they" wanted...

 

[Tigerfan85]

Sadly

 

[Wildcats5421]

When you get 2 solid teams as you had in Westbrook vs May game, stops become super hard. Not a knock on defense as much as it is a testament to the offenses.

 

[The Motley Fool]

Me personally I’m sick of the onside kicks, especially when your team hasn’t been very good with it in nearly 8 years. I’m probably an old fart (44), but to me it’s all risk and very little reward as your kicking team as to be on point with very little error.

And while we are on the subject what is up with teams going for it on 4th down with the ball on their own 25? If you haven’t been able to move the ball for the last 3 downs you probably aren’t moving it on 4 down ether, better to punt it deep and take your chances and make your opponent work for the score rather than than turn the ball over on downs and serve up an easy 8 points on a silver platter with a side of ranch.

 

[Tigerfan85]

Exactly. I seen teams going on 4th inside the 15. What the heck?? Makes zero sense to but I’m old too (55) lol

 

[Texas6Man]

Personally I hate the onside kicks for all the reasons mentioned. Even if teams can drive it down to score in more plays from kicking deep you also increase chances of a turnover, a penalty that stalls a drive, etc. the more times you force them to snap and handle the ball the better the odds you have for something going wrong for them. My view is make them work in every way possible for every point they get. So many games are played on half a field that I wonder how long before it’s shortened from 80 to 40-50 yards (that’s a little sarcastic but with a slight bit of truth lol) I too am “old school” I suppose at 43. I’m from the belief in defense being the ones to control games and set tones and apparently that way of thinking is dying out, sadly!

 

[GetARealProblem]

I’m old school at 45 and coached this game Back in the old school days I guess. I wouldn’t be to excited to kick the ball deep to athletes like Grayson at strawn. When they have an athlete like Grayson, if he breaks they break. Doesn’t matter if it’s 30 yards or 79 he gets the rest. I know nothing of May but Westbrook does not have depth that can be on the field with May. In that scenario, I wouldn’t be excited about having my kids run a wind sprint every time we scored. It’s much more taxing on the KO team than the KR team. What is the coaches rational? No clue, just thoughts to pick at. There are so many variables to if this then that in this scenario you would have to write a short novel to cover it all. I do know if you really go back to old school days and one or two coaches doing literally everything you saw A LOT of balanced T and that set alone isn’t going to score like the current offensive schemes. Mixed in yes, but alone no. Vance Jones is as old school as you get and some games years he onsides a lot and others not so much. He also has out scored for several state championships as an old school guy. By the way he’s very pleasant gentleman, highly recommend visiting with him if you ever get the chance. He’s happy to talk his philosophy about these kinds of things as long as your respectful on approach.
Fun talking point. Thanks for starting the thread.

 

[Tigerfan85]

I’m old school at 45 and coached this game Back in the old school days I guess. I wouldn’t be to excited to kick the ball deep to athletes like Grayson at strawn. When they have an athlete like Grayson, if he breaks they break. Doesn’t matter if it’s 30 yards or 79 he gets the rest. I know nothing of May but Westbrook does not have depth that can be on the field with May. In that scenario, I wouldn’t be excited about having my kids run a wind sprint every time we scored. It’s much more taxing on the KO team than the KR team. What is the coaches rational? No clue, just thoughts to pick at. There are so many variables to if this then that in this scenario you would have to write a short novel to cover it all. I do know if you really go back to old school days and one or two coaches doing literally everything you saw A LOT of balanced T and that set alone isn’t going to score like the current offensive schemes. Mixed in yes, but alone no. Vance Jones is as old school as you get and some games years he onsides a lot and others not so much. He also has out scored for several state championships as an old school guy. By the way he’s very pleasant gentleman, highly recommend visiting with him if you ever get the chance. He’s happy to talk his philosophy about these kinds of things as long as your respectful on approach.
Fun talking point. Thanks for starting the thread.

Well said. I agree there are many scenarios to consider. Guess back in my day since we didn’t run a spread offense the ko was not an issue as far as tiring out. Stay in your lane and break down on the ball. Practiced that daily. Our coach was huge on defense it was our goal to not get scored on at all. That was our focus. It was his challenge to us. So guess that’s why i feel the way I do about it. Lol. I heard a coach say once the game has passed him by. Me too I guess. Lol

 

[Wildcats5421]

I’m old school at 45 and coached this game Back in the old school days I guess. I wouldn’t be to excited to kick the ball deep to athletes like Grayson at strawn. When they have an athlete like Grayson, if he breaks they break. Doesn’t matter if it’s 30 yards or 79 he gets the rest. I know nothing of May but Westbrook does not have depth that can be on the field with May. In that scenario, I wouldn’t be excited about having my kids run a wind sprint every time we scored. It’s much more taxing on the KO team than the KR team. What is the coaches rational? No clue, just thoughts to pick at. There are so many variables to if this then that in this scenario you would have to write a short novel to cover it all. I do know if you really go back to old school days and one or two coaches doing literally everything you saw A LOT of balanced T and that set alone isn’t going to score like the current offensive schemes. Mixed in yes, but alone no. Vance Jones is as old school as you get and some games years he onsides a lot and others not so much. He also has out scored for several state championships as an old school guy. By the way he’s very pleasant gentleman, highly recommend visiting with him if you ever get the chance. He’s happy to talk his philosophy about these kinds of things as long as your respectful on approach.
Fun talking point. Thanks for starting the thread.

Lol must not have watched the same game if you think Westbrook doesn’t have depth haha. I will never get tired of reading all the dumb comments about depth lol. The reason we don’t kick deep is we don’t have a consistent enough kicker to kick it deep. Anyways enough of the pointless talk that nobody cares about that being said. For not having any depth those rings in our first ever appearance is still going to look really good lol

 

[GetARealProblem]

Lol must not have watched the same game if you think Westbrook doesn’t have depth haha. I will never get tired of reading all the dumb comments about depth lol. The reason we don’t kick deep is we don’t have a consistent enough kicker to kick it deep. Anyways enough of the pointless talk that nobody cares about that being said. For not having any depth those rings in our first ever appearance is still going to look really good lol

Sorry to have offended you and your rings. Enjoy the life time of memories.

 

[DFWKicker16]

After the game Wednesday I ran into an old friend as I was leaving. This gentleman was a long time coach who’s won the big game before more than once. We talked a little about the May WB game. But he pointed out something that I have touched on before and that’s why so many onside kicks in the game nowadays? Also he related that to the number of high scoring games in today’s sixman world. Onside kick results in playing half the field. Less grass to travel more points will be scored. I would like to see stats that support the onside. I’ve seen many of these kicks returned so I’m not sure the ratio to the deep kick returns. That would be an interesting comparison. Maybe the coach and I are just old school but I’d like to see teams travel 60 to 70 yards for a score than I had 35-40.

I played eleven man and have been around 11 my whole life and just this past season played six man. I kicked in middle school and my freshman year and have become really good at it. I can kickoff 65 yards and what astonished me was the amount of onside kicks. I had to do some stats from the season prior and it astonished me why schools do so many onside kicks when the stats weren’t backing up the reasons why you do them. I talked to my coaches and asked but they couldn’t give any good explanations. But in our JV games when I was kicking I would kick it deep and when the other team started at the 20 we would have a much easier time. Same thing goes for punting situations and field goals. Just stuff that doesn’t make logical sense to me as someone who has been only a kicker for a few years now.

 

[Texlonghorn75]

I played six man back in the sixties and we seldom used the onside kick. We kicked away 90% of the time and reserved the onside when we wanted to steal a possession. Of course kicking away means someone has to tackle their speed guy. Sometimes they get tackled and sometimes they don't. If you have a weak kick off team onside kicks suppose to guard against long kick off returns. We all know how that works out sometimes too. We handled our onside kicks differently than most teams. We kicked hard worm burners directly at a player hoping the ricochet would create chaos on their recovering the ball. It was amusing watching some of the strange bounces and ensuing panic of chasing down the ball. I had a few onsides bounce my direction and it wasn't much fun getting all that attention either.

 

[Blue Bird]

There are two reasons for the number of onside kicks. First, if your own kicker cannot consistantly kick the ball into end zone, you are just begging for the other teams best open field runner to have a field day at your expense. Second, the number of possessions each team has becomes very important in a close game. So, any kind turnover that tilts the possession scale in your favor becomes really important. Just look at the Westbrook-May game. A 1 touchdown game and Westbrook picked up 1 possession because of their onside kicks. By the way, my thoughts are that field position means absolutly nothing in sixman football. What is 1 extra play in a scoring drive?

 

[Deleted member 21909]

I've watched several 2A 11-man games, and they are kicking the ball out of bounds on purpose. In addition to what Bluebird said, I think small schools have a hard time covering traditional kick offs since it is probably the most tiring play in football.

 

[CoachLanc]

My biggest argument for the onside kick in sixman is tackle percentage. As we all know, in sixman spacing is everything. Kicking it deep gives the return man A LOT of grass to run on and like they say "make the first man miss" and it might as well be over. With kicking the onside, it makes the field smaller and the likelihood of a tackle greater. Add on the greater chance for a turnover, especially a kid that might be afraid of some contact, and I get the appeal for it.

 

[GridironJoe]

Unless I have a kid that can kick it into the endzone im going to always kick some sort of onside. If you kick it deep in 6man and it doesnt go into the endzone 9 times out of 10 it will be returned atleast to the 30-35 yard line before a tackle is made. If you onside kick it then its going to go to the 35 yard line with a chance to recover. Also the most dangerous play in 6man is to give it to their best athlete in space...makes more sense to kick it away from the studs and try to recover it and your really not giving up much....again if i have someone that can kick it into the endzone that would be the better play.

 

[Cavman1]

Well, the one thing I haven't seen addressed here is player safety. The NFL and NCAA have instituted rules to make the onside kick harder and safer.
In sixman you can overload a side completely and have a 20 yard sprint, with the intent of someone blowing up the receiver to force a turnover. Plus in most cases even if the return man gives himself up, he still gets hit.

I would favor a 10 yard restraining line and the kicking team can not release until they kicked the ball. I have had players every year knocked out of the game and miss one to three weeks due to concussions recevied from onside kick coverage.