Ball Touching, Impetus and Possession

[Redraider092]

This one will be fun and I'm curious to see all the responses come in. Here's the play:

Team A lines up to punt (yes, I know punting the ball is rare in 6-man but for comical sake lets assume it's 4th & 40) by snapping the ball from their own 5 yard line. Punter is standing deep in his own end zone. The legally kicked ball travels in the air, past the NZ, where Team B player is standing on the Team A 20. The kicked ball proceeds to hit B on the helmet causing the ball to bounce back towards team A's goal line where:

1) Team A recovers the ball at the 1 yard line
or
2) Team A recovers the ball in their own end zone

What do you have for either scenario?

 

[Coach Chamberlain]

Scenario 1: Team A would have the ball at the 1 yard line first and 15, once the ball hits the Team B player the ball is live.

Scenario 2: It should be a touchback, because the ball would be made live by Team B after hitting the player. When that happens it would work the same as a fumble by Team B, which means if Team A recovered in their end zone it would be a touchback as long as that is the first place Team A controlled the ball after the muffed punt.

 

[CoachSanders@ACS]

This one will be fun and I'm curious to see all the responses come in. Here's the play:

Team A lines up to punt (yes, I know punting the ball is rare in 6-man but for comical sake lets assume it's 4th & 40) by snapping the ball from their own 5 yard line. Punter is standing deep in his own end zone. The legally kicked ball travels in the air, past the NZ, where Team B player is standing on the Team A 20. The kicked ball proceeds to hit B on the helmet causing the ball to bounce back towards team A's goal line where:

1) Team A recovers the ball at the 1 yard line
or
2) Team A recovers the ball in their own end zone

What do you have for either scenario?

Both hypothetical reminders to NEVER punt.

 

[dammitbobby]

I need to find the rule references but off the cuff here is what I would have:

1) B's Ball 1/G at the1.
B never possessed the ball, meaning it is still a kick. A does not get a new set of downs unless B possesses and then loses possession of the ball, or they recover the touched ball past the LTG. B muffed the ball, they did not possess it. Since A recovered the kick (i.e., muffed ball) behind the LTG, the ball goes over on downs. (I think this feels counterintuitive in this situation, but most punts/situations like this that you would normally think of, involve the ball being past the LTG, so if B did touch it and A recovered it past the LTG, it would be A's ball at the spot of recovery.)

2) Safety.
A kick is a kick is a kick, meaning Team A's impetus is what caused the ball to become dead in the EZ, not Team B's muff. It's the same as if Team A's kick was blocked and B recovered in the EZ.

I could always be wrong, but I think this is correct.

 

[Redraider092]

I need to find the rule references but off the cuff here is what I would have:

1) B's Ball 1/G at the1.
B never possessed the ball, meaning it is still a kick. A does not get a new set of downs unless B possesses and then loses possession of the ball, or they recover the touched ball past the LTG. B muffed the ball, they did not possess it. Since A recovered the kick (i.e., muffed ball) behind the LTG, the ball goes over on downs. (I think this feels counterintuitive in this situation, but most punts/situations like this that you would normally think of, involve the ball being past the LTG, so if B did touch it and A recovered it past the LTG, it would be A's ball at the spot of recovery.)

2) Safety.
A kick is a kick is a kick, meaning Team A's impetus is what caused the ball to become dead in the EZ, not Team B's muff. It's the same as if Team A's kick was blocked and B recovered in the EZ.

I could always be wrong, but I think this is correct.

You got one right and one wrong. Surprisingly it's scenario 1 you missed. Team A does get to keep the ball for recovering after Team B touched it beyond the NZ. In your answer you said A does not get a new set of downs unless B possesses and then loses possession of the ball. A muff is not possession but it is touching the ball. So Team A is eligible to gain possession once touched by Team B. So if they do recover it anywhere except their own end zone, they get to keep the ball at that spot of recovery. Remember, they cannot advance a muff, only recover it. It would be A 1/15 @ 1.

Scenario 2 is a safety because of the definition when a kick ends. It does not end until either team gains possession. Possession was gained by Team A but in their own end zone.

 

[Redraider092]

Both hypothetical reminders to NEVER punt.

Scenario 1: Team A would have the ball at the 1 yard line first and 15, once the ball hits the Team B player the ball is live.

Scenario 2: It should be a touchback, because the ball would be made live by Team B after hitting the player. When that happens it would work the same as a fumble by Team B, which means if Team A recovered in their end zone it would be a touchback as long as that is the first place Team A controlled the ball after the muffed punt.

Correct on scenario 1.

Scenario 2 correct answer is a safety. The kick does not end until possession by Team B, or A, is obtained. Therefore, it's the kick and and impetus of the kick that put the ball in the end zone, not Team B's helmet. So Team A recovering it in the end zone creates a safety against them. But that's probably better than letting Team B recover it for a TD.

 

[Legacy Zebra]

Just to be very technical, the difference between touchback and safety has nothing to do with when a kick ends, but rather the impetus on the ball. The status of the ball being a kick only affects what happens when Team A possesses the ball. If it’s still a kick, Team A may not advance the ball. If the kick has ended and the ball is loose from a subsequent fumble or pass, Team A could then advance the ball. But it is possible for Team B to add new impetus without the kick ending. That could be by batting a grounded ball, kicking the ball or muffing a ball that is at rest. For instance:

4/40 @ A-5. Team A punts and it touches Team B at the A-20. Not wanting Team A to recover the kick, Team B bats the ball. The ball goes into Team A’s end zone where it is recovered by Team A.

The ball would still be dead when recovered by A because the status of the ball is still a kick. However, Team B’s batting of the ball has added new impetus. So when the ball is dead behind Team A’s goal line, Team B is responsible for it being there making it a touchback.

 

[Redraider092]

Just to be very technical, the difference between touchback and safety has nothing to do with when a kick ends, but rather the impetus on the ball. The status of the ball being a kick only affects what happens when Team A possesses the ball. If it’s still a kick, Team A may not advance the ball. If the kick has ended and the ball is loose from a subsequent fumble or pass, Team A could then advance the ball. But it is possible for Team B to add new impetus without the kick ending. That could be by batting a grounded ball, kicking the ball or muffing a ball that is at rest. For instance:

4/40 @ A-5. Team A punts and it touches Team B at the A-20. Not wanting Team A to recover the kick, Team B bats the ball. The ball goes into Team A’s end zone where it is recovered by Team A.

The ball would still be dead when recovered by A because the status of the ball is still a kick. However, Team B’s batting of the ball has added new impetus. So when the ball is dead behind Team A’s goal line, Team B is responsible for it being there making it a touchback.

But don’t confuse this example of Team B intentionally batting the ball compared to it hitting off the top of the helmet. There’s a big difference between the two. So, again, scenario 2 is a safety.