Surprisingly this topic has not drawn attention. SB929 and HB1374 is making its way through the State Legislature which would require School Districts to allow Home-school kids to play in UIL schools if the Home-School kids chooses to. I know there has to be opinions out there on this, but just surprised that no one is mentioning it. From a Home-School parent, I have reservations about this and what the real goal of UIL is.
Homeschoolers in UIL
- Thread starter bulldawgs
- Start date
freeagent
Six-man pro
bulldawgs":19cfke9k said:
First, I can guarantee you NOBODY from UIL and public schools are in favor of this.
Second, I can guarantee you it won't pass. The best that the private-schools-in-UIL bill (which, by the way, almost all private schools are opposed to) can do is pass the Senate and die in the House.
In fact, a bill that included provisons to prohibit vouchers or tax credits to private schools just passed the House by a vote of 100+ to 40; one newspaper account I read mentioned that many GOP lawmakers represent districts with few if any private schools, but many rural public districts who vocally remind the local legislator of their need for funds.
And let's just play nice and say the bill does pass.
Do you think that the legislature and/or TEA is gonna say, okay, bring your home school kid over to the field house and Coach Good ol' Boy will get him in the lineup for Friday night's game?
Nope. You're gonna have to go to the district to register and fill out all sorts of paperwork and permit the local ISD to investigate whether your kid is actually "home schooled" or you're using it as a ruse to avoid academic work. Expect to have to haul the kid over to the public school for end-of-course testing and periodic audits of proof they are academically advancing.
The best example I can give you is when TAPPS permitted home-schooled athletes to compete for schools who agreed to participate in a program. At least three or four times a year, the student's parents would be required to submit a binder in a very precise and particular form showing academic progress of the student. The binders would be sent to TAPPS who would in turn send them to educators of their choice and they would determine whether the student was showing progress in the main core courses (math, science, language, social studies). If not, you had a very brief window to bring them to compliance or the kid was ineligible.
You would also have to arrange for annual achievement testing.
My guess under a public school program something like this would be called "premlinary paperwork." In other words, multiply that by a factor of three or five. Perhaps in-home visits from the ISD, suprise visits to determine if academic progress was really going on, etc.
And remember one thing -- when public school districts see home schoolers at their doors, they usually see the families who failed. They see kids at age 15 or 16, a year or two from college, whose parents did not or could not adequately educate their children and expecting the local high school to do in two years what they did not or could not do in the years before. Yes, there are kids and families who do home education well, but (and as home school families have told me) there are some who fail the task put before them.
Otherwise, I could see coaches who might look at this as a way to get around "no-pass, no play" and encourage students who either can't or won't do the work in the classroom to avoid the unpleasantries of school work.
You have expressed many of the concerns I have (intrusion and lack of acceptance). You have also referenced the stereotype about home-school kids. Yes some parents fail at schooling, just like some public and private schools do, but the stereotype is one that the home-school kids often are behind the public and private schools. The reality is that some kids excel and others do not, regardless of their academic environment. It is for all these reasons that I am skeptical as to what the motivation is behind this bill. I did note that there are two other Bills coming behind this. They would ultimately allow home-school and private school kids to join the State virtual network and also to include those online kids in the actual attendance numbers for a school district. I am guessing this is a roundabout way of getting more money without being upfront about it.
coachjdjones
11-man fan
bulldawgs":1m5nc7tj said:
The UIL does not write Bills.
I know but I would hope our government would have the support of UIL prior to implementing something that directly impacts them.... Oh wait, in writing this, I see how ridiculous this sounds.... legislatures seeking input from those impacted before trying to pass legislation... sorry about that
barny75070
11-man fan
Keep in mind that some of the best and brightest in our nation are from Home Schools. While you guys see it as those coming to Public are behind, the majority of families that we are associated with are home schooling as a result of the lack of delivery by the ISD's...
Why is it that we all want to fly the flag of our individuals rights, and acknowledge that government does VERY LITTLE with excellence....but when it comes to education that parents are bumbling idiots, and we should leave the education system to the "experts"....
If residence is established in the ISD access to all other District sponsored programs are available right now (Special Services, Gifted/Talented, standardized testing, etc)...why should the ISD/UIL have the right to restrict access to athletics?? Keep in mind there are no tax breaks given to Private School or Home School students...they should have the same right to access of tax paid programs within the ISD as anyone else...
Is it open for abuse?? Sure..But so is the ISD who hires the up and coming 9th grade QB from a competing town as an Office Administrator so that Johhny can play for their team...I have seen that several times here in North Dallas...and is met with a "wink" and nod...
Why is it that we all want to fly the flag of our individuals rights, and acknowledge that government does VERY LITTLE with excellence....but when it comes to education that parents are bumbling idiots, and we should leave the education system to the "experts"....
If residence is established in the ISD access to all other District sponsored programs are available right now (Special Services, Gifted/Talented, standardized testing, etc)...why should the ISD/UIL have the right to restrict access to athletics?? Keep in mind there are no tax breaks given to Private School or Home School students...they should have the same right to access of tax paid programs within the ISD as anyone else...
Is it open for abuse?? Sure..But so is the ISD who hires the up and coming 9th grade QB from a competing town as an Office Administrator so that Johhny can play for their team...I have seen that several times here in North Dallas...and is met with a "wink" and nod...
barny75070
11-man fan
Hires the Mom...sorry..
This is an interesting issue when you consider the varying interests involved.
Would not the crux of the issue come down to how the public schools receive funding? I thought public schools received an amount of money for a given year based on the number of kids who attend(ed) school (I don't know if this is done based on previous year's numbers or projections into the coming year). If kids who are not attending school, and thus not contributing to the amount of funding provided to a school, are then allowed to use that school's facilities and resources, it would seem to be a bad deal for the schools. Perhaps there is a proposal to count a home-school kid as a partial attendee and thus provide some smaller amount of funding to the school; and if there is such a proposal, it would help the home schoolers cause.
As for the coaches, I think it would be a mixed bag. Sure there are some coaches that would be all over it and exploit the system to bolster their roster. I think many other coaches, particularly at the smaller schools, would see the additions to their team as problematic. Try telling a group of boys or girls you have to bring together as a team that this one or two members of their team dont have to go to the same classes and have the same tests, etc., but they are a part of your school team. It would definitely create some challenges. Also, 95% of your team is together all day long and then you add 5% just for a part of the day. It would be very hard to unify the team. This does not even consider the hell the coach will catch from the parent of the school kid who gets demoted for a home-schooler. The only place I have seen this allowed and work to some degree is in private schools who do not have enough kids to field a team. I believe even teams that have used home schoolers to allow then to field a team, moved away from that practice as soon as they had enough kids at the school to field a team.
As for the home schoolers, I have met many a fine home school family and individual players. I have seen home school kids enter our school and settle in at the top, middle, and bottom of the class. It mostly comes down to the individual kid and his or her abilities as to how well they will do in school, and to some extent, particularly with the lower scoring kids, the quality of the education provided by the parent(s). If there was one quality I seem to find in many home school parents is that they don't seem to like to be told what to do (I guess that is parents in general to some extent), and there is a lot of doing what you are told if you submit to the public school system. As for the argument that if the home school kids pay taxes in a certain school district, they should have access to the public school athletic program, it seems that this could digress into chaos. If these families were allowed to pick and choose the public school programs they wanted to use, why would the same argument not apply to private school kids. Would they not then be able try out for the team at the public school located next to their home instead of playing for their school team? That would lead to all sorts of problems between the private and public schools. I look at sports as a privilege, and sports at a given school should be the privilege of the kids and families to commit to the school offering the sport.
Interesting issue. I would be against the proposed legislation.
Would not the crux of the issue come down to how the public schools receive funding? I thought public schools received an amount of money for a given year based on the number of kids who attend(ed) school (I don't know if this is done based on previous year's numbers or projections into the coming year). If kids who are not attending school, and thus not contributing to the amount of funding provided to a school, are then allowed to use that school's facilities and resources, it would seem to be a bad deal for the schools. Perhaps there is a proposal to count a home-school kid as a partial attendee and thus provide some smaller amount of funding to the school; and if there is such a proposal, it would help the home schoolers cause.
As for the coaches, I think it would be a mixed bag. Sure there are some coaches that would be all over it and exploit the system to bolster their roster. I think many other coaches, particularly at the smaller schools, would see the additions to their team as problematic. Try telling a group of boys or girls you have to bring together as a team that this one or two members of their team dont have to go to the same classes and have the same tests, etc., but they are a part of your school team. It would definitely create some challenges. Also, 95% of your team is together all day long and then you add 5% just for a part of the day. It would be very hard to unify the team. This does not even consider the hell the coach will catch from the parent of the school kid who gets demoted for a home-schooler. The only place I have seen this allowed and work to some degree is in private schools who do not have enough kids to field a team. I believe even teams that have used home schoolers to allow then to field a team, moved away from that practice as soon as they had enough kids at the school to field a team.
As for the home schoolers, I have met many a fine home school family and individual players. I have seen home school kids enter our school and settle in at the top, middle, and bottom of the class. It mostly comes down to the individual kid and his or her abilities as to how well they will do in school, and to some extent, particularly with the lower scoring kids, the quality of the education provided by the parent(s). If there was one quality I seem to find in many home school parents is that they don't seem to like to be told what to do (I guess that is parents in general to some extent), and there is a lot of doing what you are told if you submit to the public school system. As for the argument that if the home school kids pay taxes in a certain school district, they should have access to the public school athletic program, it seems that this could digress into chaos. If these families were allowed to pick and choose the public school programs they wanted to use, why would the same argument not apply to private school kids. Would they not then be able try out for the team at the public school located next to their home instead of playing for their school team? That would lead to all sorts of problems between the private and public schools. I look at sports as a privilege, and sports at a given school should be the privilege of the kids and families to commit to the school offering the sport.
Interesting issue. I would be against the proposed legislation.
freeagent
Six-man pro
Several years ago, when Lifegate participated in the TAPPS home school program (and had about 25 hs kids vs current 45 or so), we thought through how we were going to administer the program.
One area we decided was that we would accept home school athletes to insure that our enrolled students could compete; that is, the team would primarily exist for the enrolled students and not for the homeschool kids. If we had adequate numbers of enrolled students to field a team, we would not add homeschool kids (although previous participants could remain on the team).
Last night, we had our booster club meeting. One thing mentioned was that we had a very large group of junior high (grade 6-8) girls interested in cheerleading and we may actually have to have tryouts for the squad. But it was mentioned that there was a homeschool girl who might be interested and she may be given a chance to try out. You know, if I was a parent of a girl who was "cut" for a kid who doesn't attend our school to be on the squad, I'd be somewhat upset.
And Lord knows, you do not want upset cheerleader moms hanging around to see the principal.
One area we decided was that we would accept home school athletes to insure that our enrolled students could compete; that is, the team would primarily exist for the enrolled students and not for the homeschool kids. If we had adequate numbers of enrolled students to field a team, we would not add homeschool kids (although previous participants could remain on the team).
Last night, we had our booster club meeting. One thing mentioned was that we had a very large group of junior high (grade 6-8) girls interested in cheerleading and we may actually have to have tryouts for the squad. But it was mentioned that there was a homeschool girl who might be interested and she may be given a chance to try out. You know, if I was a parent of a girl who was "cut" for a kid who doesn't attend our school to be on the squad, I'd be somewhat upset.
And Lord knows, you do not want upset cheerleader moms hanging around to see the principal.
TexianDoc
11-man fan
GSB":4j3ksban said:
Entire post is eloquent, as usual, Scott.
(Former) home school parents CAN be difficult....but all that we really want is as follows:
all the coaches, teachers, administrators, other kids' parents, other kids' pastors, etc. just need to do those things that will insure that our own kids get the 100% climate-controlled upbringing that we've planned for them!
TD
Old Bearkat
Six-man expert
coachjdjones":1onscqdv said:
They just spend them......
Actually, now that I read the comment on its own
.....If there was one quality I seem to find in many home school parents is that they don't seem to like to be told what to do.....
it may have come off differently than I meant it, or at least not as accurately when considered with the parenthetical, which is universally true...parents do not like to be told what to do, period. What I was thinking when I was writing about the home school person is something that I had not considered before an experience I had with my family. One year, because of my job schedule, we could only go on vacation two weeks after school started. Since our kids were young and in private school ,we figured we could make it work. We went to DisneyWorld and it was great. There were no lines and the whole thing was just so much more relaxed and enjoyable than if we would have gone on any of the school breaks we usually relied on for vacation time. At that point I wondered how much being able to make your own schedule had to do with people's decision to home school. I know there are many reasons from quality of public school available, religious reasons, etc., but I thought at some level home school people just didn't want to be bound by a school schedule. It probably seems naive, but until that trip, I had never thought what it would be like to be "off the grid" as far as public school education was concerned. But after my trip, I realized what a huge benefit being able to make our own schedule would be for our family. The school really schedules your family's life, many times for decades.
.....If there was one quality I seem to find in many home school parents is that they don't seem to like to be told what to do.....
it may have come off differently than I meant it, or at least not as accurately when considered with the parenthetical, which is universally true...parents do not like to be told what to do, period. What I was thinking when I was writing about the home school person is something that I had not considered before an experience I had with my family. One year, because of my job schedule, we could only go on vacation two weeks after school started. Since our kids were young and in private school ,we figured we could make it work. We went to DisneyWorld and it was great. There were no lines and the whole thing was just so much more relaxed and enjoyable than if we would have gone on any of the school breaks we usually relied on for vacation time. At that point I wondered how much being able to make your own schedule had to do with people's decision to home school. I know there are many reasons from quality of public school available, religious reasons, etc., but I thought at some level home school people just didn't want to be bound by a school schedule. It probably seems naive, but until that trip, I had never thought what it would be like to be "off the grid" as far as public school education was concerned. But after my trip, I realized what a huge benefit being able to make our own schedule would be for our family. The school really schedules your family's life, many times for decades.
freeagent
Six-man pro
bulldawgs":3fwhkc7g said:
I'm not sure who/what/where the "juice" is behind this bill, but I know several years ago there were some of the home school groups pushing such an idea.
In fact, I remember when ol' JD Sabrusla (RIP, from Bellville Faith) and I and another gentleman went before the TAPPS board maybe seven or eight years ago to ask the TAPPS Board to "grandfather" current participants in the then-being-eliminated home school participation program (which, to their credit, the TAPPS Board did grant). I forget the gentleman who was in our threesome before the board (I think he was from a larger school in the DFW area and was a home school parent/coach at the school). He said that the state legislature was going to approve homeschoolers playing on UIL public schools that or the next session.
I looked at him like he was crazy. I think Edd Burleson said something like, where did you get that information? I was hoping he hadn't ruined our entire presentation. Must have been JD's charm that pulled us through.
West Texas Sixmaner
11-man fan
barny75070":3b29mte8 said:
No one is restricting access. The PARENTS have CHOSEN to take their kids out of public schools and therefore have CHOSEN NOT to access. I hate it when people think everything is their "right" and there are no consequences!
freeagent
Six-man pro
Texman301":160z6sxx said:
Both of you are right.
Let's face it. If a child is meeting academic challenges and succeeding in a home school setting, chances are none of us in private or public schools are going to see that kid grace our doorways for enrollment.
But I know at our private school -- and at public schools -- we see families who have not done their job as home educators and kids who have suffered academically because of it. Some of them, we (as a private school) do accept and help them, but others we have to decline enrollment because they are sometimes multiple years behind their grade level. Our good friends in public school don't have that luxury and must accept them for enrollment.
Other famililes are successful as home educators and later choose private or public education to complete their child's education for a number of reasons ... family circumstances, personal preference, religious education, sports, whatever.
What percentage falls in that "failure" category? I don't know. I know a lot of home school families who are succeeding. But, as a previous poster mentioned, there are kids (and families) who fail at academics in all school settings -- public, private and home school.
Old Bearkat
Six-man expert
Most home schooled kids I know tested out higher than their public schooled counterparts. 32-36 on the ACT ain't shabby.
barny75070
11-man fan
West Texas Six Maner- Certainly hadn't intended on fighting this battle on behalf of all the Home School students out there...But do keep in mind...The taxes that I pay to support the ISD are just the same as yours- No tax breaks given for not costing the ISD the $ to educate my child...It certainly isn't a "right" to have my son play football at the local ISD-
And in regard to the 14 years of experience in seeing all Home School students as bumbling idiots- Here are just a few quick pieces of info:
National Average for Homeschoolers in Standardized Testing:
Reading 89%
Language-84%
Math-84%
Science-86%
National Average for Public Schools:
Reading- 55%
Language-54%
Math-54%
Science-51%
Home School College Graduation Rate- 66.7% Average GPA 3.43
Public School College Graduation Rate- 57.5% Average GPA 3.14
Really don't want to get into the debate over Public/Private/Home School, etc...As several folks have already stated- Families need to do what is right for their family- Education is not a "one size fits all" program, and those who seek different avenues to educate their child shouldn't be seen as a threat....
Maybe I am just nieve when I made my earlier post regarding Home Schooling. I have always taken the approach that it is about the kids...and did not take into account the politics of the school systems...If I have offended or anyone has felt attacked by my posts, that was not my intent...
And in regard to the 14 years of experience in seeing all Home School students as bumbling idiots- Here are just a few quick pieces of info:
National Average for Homeschoolers in Standardized Testing:
Reading 89%
Language-84%
Math-84%
Science-86%
National Average for Public Schools:
Reading- 55%
Language-54%
Math-54%
Science-51%
Home School College Graduation Rate- 66.7% Average GPA 3.43
Public School College Graduation Rate- 57.5% Average GPA 3.14
Really don't want to get into the debate over Public/Private/Home School, etc...As several folks have already stated- Families need to do what is right for their family- Education is not a "one size fits all" program, and those who seek different avenues to educate their child shouldn't be seen as a threat....
Maybe I am just nieve when I made my earlier post regarding Home Schooling. I have always taken the approach that it is about the kids...and did not take into account the politics of the school systems...If I have offended or anyone has felt attacked by my posts, that was not my intent...
freeagent
Six-man pro
According to this morning's fishwrapper, this proposed change passed in the Senate by a 21-7 vote.
My expectaions are that it will die a quiet death in the House, where most Republican legislators have fewer connections to private schools and home school groups.
If it passed, here's another "gotcha," what if my private school didn't have a team in a sport my little darling wanted to participate in (oh, say, soccer, baseball, softball, swimming, 'rasslin, or even a girl who wanted to play football). Why should some homeschooler get the advantage of participating in that sport at the local high school when they can't?
Again, the law of unintended consequences apply.
My expectaions are that it will die a quiet death in the House, where most Republican legislators have fewer connections to private schools and home school groups.
If it passed, here's another "gotcha," what if my private school didn't have a team in a sport my little darling wanted to participate in (oh, say, soccer, baseball, softball, swimming, 'rasslin, or even a girl who wanted to play football). Why should some homeschooler get the advantage of participating in that sport at the local high school when they can't?
Again, the law of unintended consequences apply.
