Jerusalem as the Capital

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Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:15 pm

Fellow forum member Texlonghorn 75 posted this link for me. Let's discuss

https://bibleprophecy.wordpress.com/2017/12/06/trump-recognizes-jerusalem-as-israels-capital/
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Re: Jersusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:30 pm

My questions to you Texlonghorn75...

1) Does Israel under Jewish control even suppose to exist? The Muslims held that land for 1,000 years prior to the end of WW2.

2) What purpose does Trump have in recognizing Jerusalem which is one of the most contentious cities between Jews, Christians, and Muslims?

3) Do you know that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God? Jews call him (one of a few names) Adonai, Christians "God", and Muslims "Allah".... but it is the same God. And yet these three groups have been for 1500 years killing each other over this fact thinking that God is going to choose a side as a favourite?

4) If we all believe in the same God, why can't we all get along? Jerusalem is a sacred city for our 3 sects of religion. Why is it that we can't share it?

5) Do you know that the second most sacred prophet in Islam after Muhammed is Jesus Christ? Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was one of hte most important prophets in history but they do not believe he was the son of God.

6) Jesus was born and died a Jew. He was NEVER a Christian. Christianity sprung out after his death and without the work of St. Paul, our faith would have died probably before the first century ended. St. Paul brought the Christian faith throughout the Roman world with great risk to own self. Had that not happened, Christianity would have fizzled out in Judea where Jesus lived his life.

7) Do you really think that Donald Trump knows any of this?!?!?

8) Go ask Steven J. Friesen at the University of Texas about any of this ....
https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/rs/faculty/sjf365
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Re: Jersusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:22 am

topher800 wrote:My questions to you Texlonghorn75...

1) Does Israel under Jewish control even suppose to exist? The Muslims held that land for 1,000 years prior to the end of WW2.

2) What purpose does Trump have in recognizing Jerusalem which is one of the most contentious cities between Jews, Christians, and Muslims?

3) Do you know that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God? Jews call him (one of a few names) Adonai, Christians "God", and Muslims "Allah".... but it is the same God. And yet these three groups have been for 1500 years killing each other over this fact thinking that God is going to choose a side as a favourite?

4) If we all believe in the same God, why can't we all get along? Jerusalem is a sacred city for our 3 sects of religion. Why is it that we can't share it?

5) Do you know that the second most sacred prophet in Islam after Muhammed is Jesus Christ? Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was one of hte most important prophets in history but they do not believe he was the son of God.

6) Jesus was born and died a Jew. He was NEVER a Christian. Christianity sprung out after his death and without the work of St. Paul, our faith would have died probably before the first century ended. St. Paul brought the Christian faith throughout the Roman world with great risk to own self. Had that not happened, Christianity would have fizzled out in Judea where Jesus lived his life.

7) Do you really think that Donald Trump knows any of this?!?!?

8) Go ask Steven J. Friesen at the University of Texas about any of this ....
https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/rs/faculty/sjf365


https://youtu.be/TVlg01QMN3k
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Re: Jersusalem as the Capital

Postby Texlonghorn75 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 9:21 am

topher800 wrote:My questions to you Texlonghorn75...

1) Does Israel under Jewish control even suppose to exist? The Muslims held that land for 1,000 years prior to the end of WW2.

2) What purpose does Trump have in recognizing Jerusalem which is one of the most contentious cities between Jews, Christians, and Muslims?

3) Do you know that Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe in the same God? Jews call him (one of a few names) Adonai, Christians "God", and Muslims "Allah".... but it is the same God. And yet these three groups have been for 1500 years killing each other over this fact thinking that God is going to choose a side as a favourite?

4) If we all believe in the same God, why can't we all get along? Jerusalem is a sacred city for our 3 sects of religion. Why is it that we can't share it?

5) Do you know that the second most sacred prophet in Islam after Muhammed is Jesus Christ? Yes, Muslims believe that Jesus was one of hte most important prophets in history but they do not believe he was the son of God.

6) Jesus was born and died a Jew. He was NEVER a Christian. Christianity sprung out after his death and without the work of St. Paul, our faith would have died probably before the first century ended. St. Paul brought the Christian faith throughout the Roman world with great risk to own self. Had that not happened, Christianity would have fizzled out in Judea where Jesus lived his life.

7) Do you really think that Donald Trump knows any of this?!?!?

8) Go ask Steven J. Friesen at the University of Texas about any of this ....
https://liberalarts.utexas.edu/rs/faculty/sjf365

My, I opened the hornet's nest. As far as Israel should exist or not you might want to read the Bible for that answer. A Greater Power than you or me deemed that it should. Trump went to great length of explain Why he did what he did. The former presidents ducked the opportunity for various reasons. I'm confused about your statement that Jews and Christians have been killing each other for 1500 years? Nazi's were not Christians. I am not aware of how and what all Jew, Muslims and Christians believe in. Each religion has several different groups or sects within their religion too. Can you please explain(share) all those differences of beliefs to me. It might take a while. I thought we were getting along? Did Trump's action upset your apple cart? It happened three years ago. Donald Trump seems to know the significance of moving the US embassy to Jerusalem and you don't. So this Steven Friesen guy has some degrees and has an opinion on religion? So do about 5000 other college professors in the US alone, That doesn't even begin to mention all the preachers and religious leaders throughout our great country. That explains all the differences in beliefs, doesn't it?
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:18 am

Oh man, that made me laugh Tex :) Thank you. I needed that. You know the local preacher running his evangelical Church out of a store front with his diploma from Oral Roberts or better yet Liberty University hanging behind the altar, probably doesn't have the best grasp on the Holy Bible. Taking the Bible literally is the choice of many Christians in America but it lends itself to some interesting complications.

Jews have been persecuted by Christians for centuries. The pogroms in the early part of the 20the century in Russia are one example. It hasn't just been Muslims killing Jews and Christians and vice versa. Unfortunately, there is a long history of hate between Jews and Christians. :(

I am fully aware that God promised Moses a homeland and that Abraham fulfilled the covenant with God. I have no problems with the Jewish people having a homeland of their own, but the way it happened after WW2, the creation of Israel, not really the best example of how to establish a country. The founding of America is a much more family friendly historical lesson... and thats say alot considering America was founded during a war.

As for Trump, he read what someone else wrote for him. That man can't point out Israel on a blank map. Crap, I don't think Trump could find Israel on a labeled map!
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 am

topher800 wrote:Oh man, that made me laugh Tex :) Thank you. I needed that. You know the local preacher running his evangelical Church out of a store front with his diploma from Oral Roberts or better yet Liberty University hanging behind the altar, probably doesn't have the best grasp on the Holy Bible. Taking the Bible literally is the choice of many Christians in America but it lends itself to some interesting complications.

Jews have been persecuted by Christians for centuries. The pogroms in the early part of the 20the century in Russia are one example. It hasn't just been Muslims killing Jews and Christians and vice versa. Unfortunately, there is a long history of hate between Jews and Christians. :(

I am fully aware that God promised Moses a homeland and that Abraham fulfilled the covenant with God. I have no problems with the Jewish people having a homeland of their own, but the way it happened after WW2, the creation of Israel, not really the best example of how to establish a country. The founding of America is a much more family friendly historical lesson... and thats say alot considering America was founded during a war.

As for Trump, he read what someone else wrote for him. That man can't point out Israel on a blank map. Crap, I don't think Trump could find Israel on a labeled map!


You sound like Helen Thomas to me. Harry Truman is my second favorite president, behind only Washington himself, because he stood up to Bolshevikism, desegregated the military, and pushed for the creation of Israel. While not everything can be as great as the American Revolution, the Jews went through literal hell during the Holocaust. Personally, in hindsight, I think we should have given them more land as a buffer zone to protect them from people who want to destroy them by pushing them in the Mediterranean Sea.

I'm no Biblical scholar, but I'm with Tex that you should go read the Old Testament again.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:10 pm

And why did Truman push so hard for the establishment of Israel? Do you know how early the American government knew about the atrocities in Europe and did the minimal. FDR was a man of his time and his thinking reflected that. I am not here to judge FDR under 2020 lenses as many libs do. That is wrong and completely unfair to FDR.

Let's go to the Old Testament, I do enjoy Leviticus... let's go to Lev 25;44-46

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life..."

I guess Tebow and Tex can come on up to Canada and make me your slave since I am from a neighboring nation. But if it's a little too far of a trek, why not just gather local non-American residents and use them as slaves.

See why it's dangerous to start quoting from books written several millenia ago? Their teachings don't always fit in today's society. Or do y'all just pick and choose what you want from the OT? Asking for a friend... ;)
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:45 pm

topher800 wrote:And why did Truman push so hard for the establishment of Israel? Do you know how early the American government knew about the atrocities in Europe and did the minimal. FDR was a man of his time and his thinking reflected that. I am not here to judge FDR under 2020 lenses as many libs do. That is wrong and completely unfair to FDR.


The Holocaust is the worst event in human history. The Soviets killed their own people and put millions in prison, but they never mass exterminated "undesirable people." There is a special place in history (and hell) preserved for governments like Nazi Germany, Polpot (sp) in Cambodia, and the few others who mass exterminated people. Truman understood this, but I am not sure you do or this argument would not be taking palce.

FDR did a lot of bad things in terms of foreign-policy, and I am not talking about the controversial New Deal or Japanese interment. The worst thing he did was coddle the Soviets during World War II. But for Truman, the Russians would have taken over most of the Old World.

I don't know if FDR purposely downplayed the Holocaust before American entered the war, however. I know some did like the New York Times, but he cut Japan's oil supply knowing they would respond militarily. FDR wanted to fight Nazi Germany, and in hindsight his desire to fight Nazi Germany was correct. The Republicans that drug their feet did not want a repeat of World War I where we helped England and France win against a non-Nazi Germany. All the European countries were out of control before World War I.

While I might be wrong about FDR, why did he cut Japan's oil if he was trying to cover up the Holocaust?

Let's go to the Old Testament, I do enjoy Leviticus... let's go to Lev 25;44-46

“‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life..."

I guess Tebow and Tex can come on up to Canada and make me your slave since I am from a neighboring nation. But if it's a little too far of a trek, why not just gather local non-American residents and use them as slaves.

See why it's dangerous to start quoting from books written several millenia ago? Their teachings don't always fit in today's society. Or do y'all just pick and choose what you want from the OT? Asking for a friend... ;)


That doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say here? Go read the 13th Amendment.

Since you are trying to dodge, let me ask you this: Why do we cry over the Palestinians when another Islamic group, the Kurds, is the largest ethnic minority in the world without their own state? Heck, the Kurds are actually pro-western as well.

If we are going to worry about morality and the right thing, why don't we create a state for them? I always thought we should just flip the Palestinians and the Kurds; The Israels and Kurds could live in peace in Israel while Turkey and Iraq would be happy without any Kurds.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:11 pm

The Leviticus quote was sarcasm. Holy moly... not on your game today are ya Tebow? I'm not crying over the Palestinians nor am I advocating giving the land we call Israel back to the Muslims. Far from it, I believe in Israel. But surely the manner in which it was created can be discussed and debated.

Completely agree about the Holocaust. Stalin did impose a mass extermination of the Ukrainians called Holdomor in the early 30s but that was through starvation with 3.5 million dead roughly... not via concentration camps. Which was an idea Hitler stole from the British who used the first rudimentary concentration camps during the Boer War albeit minus the gas chambers.

Those pesky Republicans getting in the way of America fighting Nazi Germany. I assume the Japanese oil comment is also sarcasm... so let's leave it at that.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 1:33 pm

topher800 wrote:The Leviticus quote was sarcasm. Holy moly... not on your game today are ya Tebow?


To be funny, humor needs a grain of truth. No American wants to enslave Canadians and the Israels are not enslaving the Palestinians, if that's what you were hinting at.

I'm not crying over the Palestinians nor am I advocating giving the land we call Israel back to the Muslims. Far from it, I believe in Israel. But surely the manner in which it was created can be discussed and debated.


I don't because the Holocaust was so bad they could not live in Europe anymore. I'm tired of people on the left crying about past wrongs but marginalizing Jews. One way they do this is comparing Trump to mass murdering psychopath. With few exceptions, Jackson is the only one I can think of off the top of my head and that still might be a stretch, no U.S. President has ever mass exterminated people, period, end of statement.

Completely agree about the Holocaust. Stalin did impose a mass extermination of the Ukrainians called Holdomor in the early 30s but that was through starvation with 3.5 million dead roughly... not via concentration camps. Which was an idea Hitler stole from the British who used the first rudimentary concentration camps during the Boer War albeit minus the gas chambers.


Great!

Those pesky Republicans getting in the way of America fighting Nazi Germany. I assume the Japanese oil comment is also sarcasm... so let's leave it at that.


No sarcasm, FDR made a good strategic calculation. The Republicans would not allow him to declare war, and Nazi Germany was pretty economically self-sufficient (and if they weren't, they would buy stuff "on the market" via Switzerland.) The only thing FDR could do was cut Japan's oil off; this forced Japan to either stop fighting or try to get oil. I'm not saying FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, but he did know Japan would have to reform their behavior in someway. I can cite books that backup this idea.

While I'm not a huge FDR fan, I do think he did a good job of fighting the Axis. The problem was he misidentified the Soviets. Even the New Deal has some positive qualities to it. The interment camps were no bueno, however.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby topher800 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:24 pm

Sarcasm doesn't have to be funny. I used it to highlight that referring people to the Old Testament may not be a good idea. The OT has a lot of strange ideas in it ... like the slavery laws in Leviticus.

You missed my point about the creation of Israel, we should be able to debate how it was done rather than just saying "Well, the OT says that land belonged to the Israelites"... that is the simple narrative. Without western help and influence, Israel could not have been established as quickly as it was.

Tenions with Japan had been coming to a head throughout the 30s and FDR did what he thought was right. I dont think he knew about Pearl.... though I think American intelligence should have prepared Pearl as it was a lot easier to attack there than the mainland western US coast. Churchill bought into Stalin as well. I don't blame FDR for missing that one. The focus on the war was total and I don't think anyone in say 1944 would have thought that the Soviets would have moved so quickly to establish the Iron Curtain and bring so many socialist nations under the Comecon umbrella.

As for Donald... I don't think he is a murderous psychopath. I think he's a moron who is in over his head. Anyone who calls themselves a "genius" is definitely not one. If you have to label yourself as one instead of letting others discover your intellect through writings, words, and actions.... well that just says it all.

Even our inept Prime Minister has managed to flatten the curve in Canada much like every other western world nation has maanged to do yet the 'rona rages on in the USA with no end in sight. I pray that something can be done and America can flatten its curve soon.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby Coach Fryar » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:37 pm

While I do enjoy reading all the commentary on this site, I do not comment often, and I do not intend to join this conversation, only to suggest a great book on this very subject. When this book was suggested to me by a member at our church, I was compelled to read it. Fascinating. Lots of nonfictional histories Biblical facts told in a fictional story. Called, The Oracle, by Jonathan Cahn.

And when you finish that one, do yourself a favor and read Seven Days In Utopia.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 2:49 pm

Coach Fryar wrote:While I do enjoy reading all the commentary on this site, I do not comment often, and I do not intend to join this conversation, only to suggest a great book on this very subject. When this book was suggested to me by a member at our church, I was compelled to read it. Fascinating. Lots of nonfictional histories Biblical facts told in a fictional story. Called, The Oracle, by Jonathan Cahn.

And when you finish that one, do yourself a favor and read Seven Days In Utopia.


Thanks for the suggestion, coach. To return the favor, a good book about FDR'S trust of Russia during World War II is Between Roosevelt and Stalin by Dennis J. Dunn.
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby smokeyjoe53 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:07 pm

Topher, never let theology get in the way of religion.......
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Re: Jerusalem as the Capital

Postby TebowTime15 » Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:12 pm

topher800 wrote:Sarcasm doesn't have to be funny. I used it to highlight that referring people to the Old Testament may not be a good idea. The OT has a lot of strange ideas in it ... like the slavery laws in Leviticus.

You missed my point about the creation of Israel, we should be able to debate how it was done rather than just saying "Well, the OT says that land belonged to the Israelites"... that is the simple narrative. Without western help and influence, Israel could not have been established as quickly as it was.

Tenions with Japan had been coming to a head throughout the 30s and FDR did what he thought was right. I dont think he knew about Pearl.... though I think American intelligence should have prepared Pearl as it was a lot easier to attack there than the mainland western US coast. Churchill bought into Stalin as well. I don't blame FDR for missing that one. The focus on the war was total and I don't think anyone in say 1944 would have thought that the Soviets would have moved so quickly to establish the Iron Curtain and bring so many socialist nations under the Comecon umbrella.

As for Donald... I don't think he is a murderous psychopath. I think he's a moron who is in over his head. Anyone who calls themselves a "genius" is definitely not one. If you have to label yourself as one instead of letting others discover your intellect through writings, words, and actions.... well that just says it all.

Even our inept Prime Minister has managed to flatten the curve in Canada much like every other western world nation has maanged to do yet the 'rona rages on in the USA with no end in sight. I pray that something can be done and America can flatten its curve soon.


The Bible also says slaves should be released after seven years or once they pay their debate off. It was more of an indentured servitude than New World slavery. Not making excuse for it, but let's give context.

I think what the Bible says about Israel is secondary to giving the Jews their own state after the horror of World War II. I guess we could have turned Alaska into a Jewish country, but it made sense to make it part of the post-World War II end of colonization movement. To add context, the Vietnam War was directly a result of French not giving up on their colonization. There has never been a country called Palestine. I just don't see what we need to talk about unless your Helen Thomas kind of person.

You should read the book I recommended coach about FDR. I know a lot of conservatives do not like the New Deal, but his willingness to help the Soviets gave them the resources necessary to start industrialization, which fueled them during World War II. Senator Harry S. Truman thought we should turn the "resources spicket" off as the Russians started moving the Nazi west. Basically, let them kill each other yet ensure Germany does not win.

There are reasons to criticize Trump. You and others are entitled to the opinion, but no one is entitled to make up facts. I appreciate you acknowledging he is not Hitler, as crazy that would have sounded a few years ago.

We've gone over the COVID stuff. While I'm happy Canada is doing well, I think Trump has handled the COVID outbreak just fine.
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