Second Amendment

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Re: Second Amendment

Postby Old Bearkat » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:16 am

topher80 wrote:The wording in the constitution presents a whole heap of problems in itself...

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

I read that as it is a militia, such as the modern day National Guard, who should be armed and willing to defend against governmental tyranny. Naturally, the wording can be read and interpreted a number of ways to support one's point of view/beliefs.

I pray for the senseless killing of innocent citizens to end.


Same tired old misleading argument Topher.

As defined by congress in 1789, and earlier defined by Jefferson and Madison, the militia meant the unorganized militia, which means ALL adult males between ages 17 to 64. Don't yap about things you do not understand.

No one likes the slaughter, but the proposed solutions by all you gun control nuts will accomplish nothing but the disarming of law abiding citizens. I oppose all those measures. Also, you keep coming back and saying we need just one more little ban, and all will be fine until you have all guns banned. You Canadians and Brits may want to be unarmed sheeple, but not most Americans.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:21 am

Meth exists here and it mostly sprayed onto marijuana but it is not a problem locally *yet*. The big one that is killing many Torontoians is fake Fentanyl patches which come into Canada from illegal Chinese chemistry factories through the port of Vancouver. No one can tell the difference until they are dead due to the chemical formula being slightly off and way too strong. The ads on the radio explaining the dangers of Fentanyl can be 10,000x stronger than morphine which is bananas. Anyone who has had a serious injury or surgery knows morphine is strong as heck.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:24 am

Old Bearkat wrote:
Same tired old misleading argument Topher.

As defined by congress in 1789, and earlier defined by Jefferson and Madison, the militia meant the unorganized militia, which means ALL adult males between ages 17 to 64. Don't yap about things you do not understand.

No one likes the slaughter, but the proposed solutions by all you gun control nuts will accomplish nothing but the disarming of law abiding citizens. I oppose all those measures. Also, you keep coming back and saying we need just one more little ban, and all will be fine until you have all guns banned. You Canadians and Brits may want to be unarmed sheeple, but not most Americans.


I said nothing of the sort. I could care less what America does with their laws. Not my country. I came here to better understand the thinking behind keeping the 2nd Amendment not protest as some anti-gun nut. I appreciate you explaining the militia part being unorganized however there was no need for your last paragraph. If a person doesn't ask questions how can they ever understand different points of view?
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby oldfat&bald » Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:33 pm

topher80 wrote:
Old Bearkat wrote:
Same tired old misleading argument Topher.

As defined by congress in 1789, and earlier defined by Jefferson and Madison, the militia meant the unorganized militia, which means ALL adult males between ages 17 to 64. Don't yap about things you do not understand.

No one likes the slaughter, but the proposed solutions by all you gun control nuts will accomplish nothing but the disarming of law abiding citizens. I oppose all those measures. Also, you keep coming back and saying we need just one more little ban, and all will be fine until you have all guns banned. You Canadians and Brits may want to be unarmed sheeple, but not most Americans.


I said nothing of the sort. I could care less what America does with their laws. Not my country. I came here to better understand the thinking behind keeping the 2nd Amendment not protest as some anti-gun nut. I appreciate you explaining the militia part being unorganized however there was no need for your last paragraph. If a person doesn't ask questions how can they ever understand different points of view?


Topher, as often as those of us who support the civil rights enshrined in the second amendment have been called terrorists, racists, and murderers here lately, it’s pretty easy to get touchy.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:12 pm

oldfat&bald wrote:Topher, as often as those of us who support the civil rights enshrined in the second amendment have been called terrorists, racists, and murderers here lately, it’s pretty easy to get touchy.


That is vile and disgusting behaviour to ridicule someone for their beliefs and even more so when those beliefs are supported in your constitution. I want to learn and understand all the arguments so I will be able to form a rational and educated thought on the 2nd Amendment and further so I will be able to discuss it in the future with an appropriate level of understanding. I am asking similar questions to American friends on a gardening forum and, as you can imagine being a gardening forum, their views are 95% anti-gun.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby 51eleven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:15 pm

Mark F, as you started this thread I'm wondering if you received the same school active shooter training I did (a while after Virginia Tech in my case). An e-mail and a laminated credit card sized card with the three key points on it. One is run. If you can't be seen by the shooter get away. Two was hide (where in most cases?). Three is fight back if no other choice. Yell angrily at the shooter (???), throw something (a stapler?) at them. I read an article last week that challenged the latter two ideas. It referred to a study by I forget who, maybe the FBI, that active shooters in these cases have a 6 or maybe it was a 9% kill rate on moving targets. If you hide behind a desk your a stationary target to be walked up on. If you yell or throw something you draw attention to yourself as a target. So it concluded, run, in all cases it concluded for a better chance of survival. On a college campus you have the option of legally defending yourself.
That brings up another problem though. This guy did the right thing. When told to throw the gun down, he bent over to lay it down so it wouldn't go off accidentally. He didn't raise it or point it, nothing threatening in any way. But He got shot.

https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/the-good- ... ch-gunman/
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby 51eleven » Sun Mar 04, 2018 10:55 pm

Not to offend anyone's religion but this was just weird to me.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/news/in ... s_wit.html

I can't find the picture I saw last week of the priestess sprinkling holy water on an AR15, guess it's been deleted. The guy with the crown of bullets and the gilded AR are hard to understand.
Is meat from a hog shot with a blessed gun thus kosher for those of the Jewish faith to eat or must the bullets themselves be blessed with holy water too?
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby markf » Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:56 am

51eleven wrote:Mark F, as you started this thread I'm wondering if you received the same school active shooter training I did (a while after Virginia Tech in my case). An e-mail and a laminated credit card sized card with the three key points on it. One is run. If you can't be seen by the shooter get away. Two was hide (where in most cases?). Three is fight back if no other choice. Yell angrily at the shooter (???), throw something (a stapler?) at them. I read an article last week that challenged the latter two ideas. It referred to a study by I forget who, maybe the FBI, that active shooters in these cases have a 6 or maybe it was a 9% kill rate on moving targets. If you hide behind a desk your a stationary target to be walked up on. If you yell or throw something you draw attention to yourself as a target. So it concluded, run, in all cases it concluded for a better chance of survival. On a college campus you have the option of legally defending yourself.
That brings up another problem though. This guy did the right thing. When told to throw the gun down, he bent over to lay it down so it wouldn't go off accidentally. He didn't raise it or point it, nothing threatening in any way. But He got shot.

https://lawandcrime.com/crazy/the-good- ... -disarmed-
church-gunman/
No training unless we consider practicing "lockdown" procedure and thats done maybe every 6 weeks or so
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:49 am

51eleven wrote:Is meat from a hog shot with a blessed gun thus kosher for those of the Jewish faith to eat or must the bullets themselves be blessed with holy water too?


I don't believe it would be kosher. That was an interesting article on wedding renewals. Just when I thought I'd seen it all.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby markf » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:41 am

topher80 wrote:Meth exists here and it mostly sprayed onto marijuana but it is not a problem locally *yet*. The big one that is killing many Torontoians is fake Fentanyl patches which come into Canada from illegal Chinese chemistry factories through the port of Vancouver. No one can tell the difference until they are dead due to the chemical formula being slightly off and way too strong. The ads on the radio explaining the dangers of Fentanyl can be 10,000x stronger than morphine which is bananas. Anyone who has had a serious injury or surgery knows morphine is strong as heck.

Meth sprayed on weed? Dang,wonder which way that would make you go,Weed,let's eat,let's lay around and get lazy,sleepy,Meth let's go nuts,let's go scrub the tile floors n our bathrooms with a toothbrush,let's stay awake for days,crazy to think of the two mixing,one laid back,one up for days,,I saw this on cops lol
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:23 am

Mark: I thought it was strange myself, I had never heard such a thing until a local police presentation to a few classes in the cafeteria earlier last year. I guess the meth gets you more hooked on the weed?
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby 51eleven » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:33 pm

I know this will piss off some people I've gotten along with in the past but feel the need to say it.
IMO - only - , raising the age to purchase Any semi automatic weapon to 21 Might help this situation, Slightly, maybe.
During the Vietnam war the right to vote or drink alcohol being lowered to age 18 was questioned in light of being drafted in terms of the fact that you could get drafted and killed but not buy a beer or vote. John Wayne thought no one should be able to vote until 25.
Maturity helps develop some, but some never grow up.
Some children are taught to treat weapons responsibly and learn to use them so, many are not.
Such a law Might have prevented the last mass shooting in Florida. If determined the shooter could well have found another source or settled for a shotgun and semi automatic hand gun (which I like for self defense).
The Columbine shooters obtained weapons from adult's, planned in advance, created distractions as well as bombs in advance.
The Sandy Hook shooter was disturbed throughout his youth. His single momma bought him a gun basically as a toy and took him to the shooting range.
The Virginia Tech shooter was a college senior, well over 21.
The Vegas shooter was 64.
Once again, I don't have any answers but worry about my kids and grandchildren.
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby smokeyjoe53 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:01 am

Hey, as long as they’re mature enough to stop eating Tide Pods .......
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby Old Bearkat » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:35 am

Title 10, USC, Ch 13, sec 311:


§311. Militia: composition and classes


(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.


(b) The classes of the militia are—


(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and



(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.



(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85–861, §1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103–160, div. A, title V, §524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)



US Constitution, Article 2, Section 2:



The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States
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Re: Second Amendment

Postby topher80 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:07 pm

OBK: Thank you!! I appreciate your post as it clearly defines what the militia means in the US. :)
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